Non believers in god please.

by Monster 32 Replies latest jw friends

Monster

HEY Europe!
I was in saudi from 91-93 Hated every minute of it.
funkyderek

OK Zechariah, I probably shouldn't waste my time but there may be people here who can't see through you phony arguments, so for their benefit:
If a person believes in anything spiritual (unseen) it has to be because of faith based on reason having witnessed the effects cause by the spiritual thing. This includes all such things as gravity, relativity, and all physical and spiritual laws.
That's not true. Some people believe in things without any supporting evidence. I agree that they shouldn't but that's not what you said. By comparing belief in proven, observable fact with belief in unseen spiritual entities you're trying to elevate your mythology to the status of science. That just doesn't work. Are you really saying that all religious beliefs carry the same weight as belief in gravity? Or do you just mean your particular brand of spiritualism?
Unbelievers criticize believers for the exercise of faith. They want to give the impression they don't believe or know anything unless they personally see or hear it. They believe only that which they are willing to just as with everyone ele. They hypocritically claim to know things about life and its origin. They also claim their knowledge has nothing at all to do with faith. Does not what almost all things unbelievers claim to know about evolution or anything else that occurs in the world that they have not personally witnessed require faith. You must have faith in the person relating these unproven facts to you and in whom you are willng to believe. Willingness to believe is the essential prerequisite to faith and knowledge of any kind. The only thing we are debating though is faith in the creator.
There is a huge difference between belief in a proven scientific fact based on overwhelming evidence, and faith in an unseen spiritual entity. Yes, willingness to believe is needed in both cases, but that is where the similarity ends. If one stubbornly refuses to believe in evolution, it still occurs. The evidence doesn't go away. There are no leaps of faith needed, only extrapolation of the available evidence. Where the evidence is inconclusive, the beliefs are tentative. Not so with belief in a creator. Stop believing in him, and he goes away. The "holy" books that believers cling to are all demonstrably false, the products of superstitious minds who didn't know as much about the universe as we do. Their gods, for the most part, are petty and unimaginitive, like the primitive tribespeople who dreamt them up.
The only thing preventing the unbeliever from belief in God and encouraging him to block out all the overwhelming evidence of a creator is the unbelievers fear of disappointment which carries over to every aspect of their lives. They have had many disappointments in their lives and their greatest fear or phobia now is to be further disappointed. As fear is always worse than reality the unbeliever is willing to forego chances for happiness in close personal relationships by not giving anyone the opportunity to further disappoint them. This fear keeps them alone and unfulfilled. They are not able to fully commit or trust. This fear applies not only to romantic relationships but also to family relationships and ultimately to their relationship with God. The bad things they perceive those who they should be able to depend on for keeping them safe and well have allowed to happen to them are both unjustifiable and unforgiveable.
This is as offensive as it is inaccurate. Speaking personally, the only problems I have ever had with relationships are as a result of my oppressive religious upbringing. I have no problem with trust or commitment and am in a stable, romantic relationship. I don't need a mythological being for that. I'm certainly not afraid of disappointing a god. Sometimes I worry about disappointing my girlfriend, which makes me try harder, not distance myself and pretend she doesn't exist. I have a good relationship with most members of my family, again only obstructed by the oppressive religion in which I was raised. You're heaping faulty argument upon faulty argument. I am not alone, nor am I unfulfilled. As an adult, I expect nobody to keep me safe.
They reason like this: Certainly he does not love me and even if he does who needs that kind of love. Even though he pleads for me to understand why he has abandoned me and allowed me to be hurt and abused. He says it was for reasons that at the time were beyond my understanding and had nothing to do with his deep love for me. I hate my mate. I hate my parent. I hate my God. They will never have the chance to disappoint me again. They are no longer and will never be again a part of my life.
I certainly do not reason like that, nor do I know of any unbelievers who do. Your god does not plead to me, or if he does I am unable, not unwilling, to hear him. I don't hate my mate or my parents. And I don't hate your god, I simply don't believe in him.
The unbelievers reason for his disbelief has nothing to do with scientific proof or lack of it. No one can prove anything to someone not willing to believe it.
The reason for my disbelief has everything to do with lack of evidence. All belief should be based on the available evidence, and I have found none to support the existence of a god, a devil, a heaven, a hell, a Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny, etc.
Job in the same way rejected the creator for allowing him to suffer at the hands of Satan, the great child abuser of us all. It was not until Job accepted the counsel of the young man Elihu that he ceased his criticisms of God and renewed his faith. Now God could reward and restore Job better than ever before. It is us that suffer the most for refusing to believe. Being willing to hear and accept God's explanation is the key to a mutually beneficial relationship with him our heavenly father.
Job didn't stop believing in his god, when his god started playing games with him. He just thought it was a very unfair way for a god to behave towards his faithful servant. He never stopped believing. He just stopped believing in a just god. And I am willing to hear god's explanation, if it holds water I'll even accept it, but so far I've heard nothing.
....... It is a fascinating fact that virtually without exception one of a unbelievers least favorite colors is yellow. ............. Zechariah .........
This is no more a fact that any of the rest of the ill-thought out, shoddy, offensive tripe you posted. You suggest I'm a coward because I don't close my eyes to reason and blindly believe in your all-powerful invisible man with all the answers. I would say it takes a braver man to face life as it is, and to work towards making it better, but my unbelief is based on the lack of evidence, not the moral superiority of my position.
Perhaps you'd like to think in future before making sweeping, offensive statements about subjects you don't understand.
Zechariah
Funkyderek,
Some people believe in things without any supporting evidence. I agree that they shouldn't but that's not what you said. By comparing belief in proven, observable fact with belief in unseen spiritual entities you're trying to elevate your mythology to the status of science. That just doesn't work. Are you really saying that all religious beliefs carry the same weight as belief in gravity? Or do you just mean your particular brand of spiritualism?
I am not saying that some things are not easier to believe than others. It is only because there is no objection to us believing them and so we do. You have never seen gravity like no one has ever seen God. You find definite benefit in believing in gravity. In my mind the existence of gravity is certain evidence of the existence of a creator. The creation is always evidence of the creator. You observe evidence and are willing to believe. I as a believer observe nothing that is totally random and unordered. Therefore from my perspective everything is certain proof of the existence of a creator regardless of what we believe his nature is. That is another question completely. I hold to my contention that what one believes is only that which one is willing to believe.
There is a huge difference between belief in a proven scientific fact based on overwhelming evidence, and faith in an unseen spiritual entity.
Again I hold to the fact that no one believes anything they are unwilling to believe no matter how anyone else feels about it.
Yes, willingness to believe is needed in both cases, but that is where the similarity ends.
That is the only similarity that matters.

If one stubbornly refuses to believe in evolution,it still occurs. The evidence doesn't go away. There are no leaps of faith needed, only extrapolation of the available evidence.

This is your own perspective as one unwilling to believe. I have no objection to believing there are variations among species you may call evolution. But the bottom line fact I hold to is we were designed and maufactured by an all powerful creator with whatever abilities to evolve. I think it is fair to say that belief in evolution can be compatible with belief in a creator if one is willing to accept it. It certainly does not occur on its own.

Where the evidence is inconclusive, the beliefs are tentative. Not so with belief in a creator. Stop believing in him, and he goes away. The "holy" books that believers cling to are all demonstrably false, the products of superstitious minds who didn't know as much about the universe as we do. Their gods, for the most part, are petty and unimaginitive, like the primitive tribespeople who dreamt them up.

Again.... Just your biased opinion as mine is of your disbelief...

This is as offensive as it is inaccurate. Speaking personally, the only problems I have ever had with relationships are as a result of my oppressive religious upbringing. I have no problem with trust or commitment and am in a stable, romantic relationship. I don't need a mythological being for that. I'm certainly not afraid of disappointing a god. Sometimes I worry about disappointing my girlfriend, which makes me try harder, not distance myself and pretend she doesn't exist. I have a good relationship with most members of my family, again only obstructed by the oppressive religion in which I was raised. You're heaping faulty argument upon faulty argument. I am not alone, nor am I unfulfilled. As an adult, I expect nobody to keep me safe.

Do you really think being an adult makes you capable of providing your own needs without the help of the Creator. Thats not maturity but just the opposite.
We all share the same oppressive religious background yet did not choose to disbelieve or mistrust God. The benefit you get out of denying Gods existence is you dont have to worry about disappointing him or he disapponting you. This is fear of disappointment. Unlike you I perceive trust in God to be a strength and not a weakness. I believe if you trust in God you will be saved. Your fear of disppointment prevents you from accepting the overwhelming (IMO) evidence of his existence.
Zech said: They reason like this: Certainly he does not love me and even if he does who needs that kind of love. Even though he pleads for me to understand why he has abandoned me and allowed me to be hurt and abused. He says it was for reasons that at the time were beyond my understanding and had nothing to do with his deep love for me. I hate my mate. I hate my parent. I hate my God. They will never have the chance to disappoint me again. They are no longer and will never be again a part of my life.
I certainly do not reason like that, nor do I know of any unbelievers who do. Your god does not plead to me, or if he does I am unable, not unwilling, to hear him.
I don't hate my mate or my parents.

I apologize for the tone of this statement. But certainly I was not insinuating that all these things were true at the same tme for all unbelievers. It was just to say this is the thought pattern in regard to one or more of these.

And I don't hate your god, I simply don't believe in him.
Zech said: The unbelievers reason for his disbelief has nothing to do with scientific proof or lack of it. No one can prove anything to someone not willing to believe it.
The reason for my disbelief has everything to do with lack of evidence. All belief should be based on the available evidence, and I have found none to support the existence of a god, a devil, a heaven, a hell, a Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny, etc.

Again there is no proof or evidence for someone who is unwilling to believe. One sees the donut and the other sees the hole.
Job didn't stop believing in his god.

I never insinuated that he stopped believing in the existence of God but as you correctly pointed out he stopped trusting in him.

when his god started playing games with him. He just thought it was a very unfair way for a god to behave towards his faithful servant. He never stopped believing. He just stopped believing in a just god. And I am willing to hear god's explanation, if it holds water I'll even accept it, but so far I've heard nothing.
I will discuss this in detail soon in a post on the subject. I hope that defensive wall you put up will not prevent you from being objective about it.

Zech said-....... It is a fascinating fact that virtually without exception one of a unbelievers least favorite colors is yellow.
This is no more a fact that any of the rest of the ill-thought out, shoddy, offensive tripe you posted.You suggest I'm a coward because I don't close my eyes to reason and blindly believe in your all-powerful invisible man with all the answers. I would say it takes a braver man to face life as it is, and to work towards making it better, but my unbelief is based on the lack of evidence, not the moral superiority of my position.

I never at all suggested you were a coward by saying you fear disappointment. Your overreaction here only proves my point of your mistrust. There is in reality nothing shoddy or intentionally offensive in anything I've said and if you were at all willing to believe you could clearly ascertain it was very well thought out.

Perhaps you'd like to think in future before making sweeping, offensive statements about subjects you don't understand.

I regret nothing I've said just tt you were offended by it. All that was said were on subjects I am expert on. Trust me.

The following is from a past post on H2O several years ago that will explain the source of what said about the color yellow. I think the next time you accuse someone of speaking onthings they don't know you ought to know more than what you do.
Color Legend-
0- grey 1- blue 2- green 3-red 4- yellow
5- violet 6- brown 7-black
The color to look at for my point about faith and belief of course is yellow. It ranges from strong hope, trust, belief and optimism to strong feelings of hopelessness, mistrust, disbelief, pessimism and fear of disappointment. Placed in that order the H2O members line up as follows: (4- yellow)
Zechariah 4 1 3 5 2 6 0 7
Ginny 4 7 3 1 2 0 5 6
Ofcmad 3 4 2 5 1 6 7 0
Josh1992 1 4 2 5 3 6 0 7
waiting 2 1 4 6 3 5 0 7
Englishman 1 5 4 2 3 0 7 6
Equalibrium 5 2 4 1 7 3 6 0
Flip 2 3 4 1 7 0 5 6
Angus 1 2 3 4 5 7 0 6
Bin 5 2 1 4 3 7 0 6
COMF 5 7 1 4 6 2 0 3
Delilah 2 5 1 4 3 6 7 0
Jan G. 1 3 2 4 5 6 0 7
Qwerty 2 1 5 3 4 7 0 6
Seeker 2 1 3 5 0 4 6 7
Venice 5 2 3 1 7 6 4 0
Rancher 1 2 3 7 0 5 4 6
Gedanken 5 1 2 7 0 3 4 6
Dragonwulf 3 0 7 2 5 1 6 4
Axel 5 1 2 3 0 7 6 4
Antique 2 1 5 7 0 6 3 4
Radar 4
Philo 4

The point I wanted made in introducing people to my hobby of many years (Color Test) was not to sell people on the reliability of the test as a psychological tool. That fact is well established in my own mind and the overall validity of the test is unimportant to making my point about hope, faith and belief. I was positive before asking people to take the test sight unseen that their placement of the color yellow in their individual tests would match up with their individual willingness or unwillingness to believe. All this being demonstrated in their postings here on the board. My having given no preknowledge of the test and how it translates feelings into color preferences made it impossible for certain ones to manipulate the test. Certainly this test could have been administered in the first moments of first meeting a person. I think the accuracy in regard to this one aspect of the total psychological makeup of the person is indisputably correct. And forgive me Radar and Philo for not tracking you down for your responses but I think we all now know what color you hate the most.
Although the test was not specifically about the color test I must say this out of respect for the creator both of the test Max Luscher and the creator of All things. It IMO would be totally dishonest for anyone to contend he was not impressed by the very concept that people feelings drive the preferences for colors. The very fact for instance-
One who chooses grey in the first two places is just going through the motions of life not actively participating in anything specific.
The wild, live life to the full and often risk taking ways of he that chooses red in the first two positions.
The arrogant, always right, always special attitude of one who chooses green in the first two positions.
-The mellow, laid back, peaceful demeanor of the person who chooses in the first two positions the color blue.
The hopeful, optimistic, positive attitude of he that chooses yellow in the first two positions.
The stressed, feeling abused nature of he that in the first two places chooses violet
The physically protective nature of the one who would choose brown in the first two places (sick or a health fanatic).
The rebellious, angry nature of he that in the first two places chooses black.
None of these things are in any way subjective, left up to the whim of the interpreter as with Psychic readings or some other things. It is easily understood. And I a positive everybody here many reluctantly now accepts the reality of ones feelings driving or being driven by his preferences for colors. Certainly the answer to this mystery lies in the hidden spirit programming within man (software) of Gods Little Computer People. It doesn't end there you know. There is the influence of music, smells, touch, in the self same way. This is not magic. It is science. Knowledge of the creation and the creator. But only for those who are willing to believe.
What have we learned if anything from this. One things is that humans indeed have internal spirit programming as "God's Little Computer People" and PACmen (Planned and created man). Their choices and preferences for colors have more to do with how the feel than anything else. The Luscher Color Test has encouraged the use of colors in a reverse way as therapy to change ones feelings. Like surrounding oneself with yellow for hope and happiness, blue for peace and tranquility, green for industriousness and ego, etc. But for one to try any such therapy the must have a willingness to change or believe such a change is to their benefit.
My point has always been is that what one knows and believes is only that which he is willing to know
Zechariah
Edited by - zechariah on 2 September 2002 17:30:40

Non believers in god please.

Monster

funkyderek

Zechariah

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