Hello There...my first post!

by Syndromology 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    Well, here's the problem I have with the whole ritual abuse thing: it's been pretty well debunked. Back about 10 years ago, there was a whole movement that arose claiming that Satanists had a worldwide network, that they were going around kidnapping children for sacrifices, that many people had suppressed memories of these rituals, etc. A number of investigations were conducted, and basically, the outcome was that there was little or no evidence to support the vast majority of the accounts.

    One of the major published works in the SRA movement was He Came to Set the Captives Free, by Rebecca Brown, who was supposedly a MD. The book reads like a bad horror novel. She tells of working in a hospital that was completely controlled by Satanists, where she, as a supposed Christian, was fighting spiritual battles over her patients on a daily basis. She speaks of a wedding to Satan himself, who appeared in a white suit. The wedding was attended by werewolves, vampires and other creatures of the night, who, she contends, really do exist. She writes of many specific events that could not have occurred without leaving some sort of evidence, but there is no evidence. Obviously, the work is absurd, and it has been thoroughly debunked. You can read about it at http://www.paulblizard.com/brown.html

    I was a JW for almost 30 years. Many who post here were in the organization even longer. Collectively, on this board, there must be tens of thousands of years of involvement with the Watchtower. Many of the men who post here served as elders. If these satanic rituals and demon worship were actually occurring as you state, I would think that some of us would have been at least vaguely aware that something was going on. The pedophile scandal was covered as well as anything so widespread could be, yet I personally knew two JW pedophiles and a JW rapist. However, I never heard anything at all about Satanism being practiced, and I know of no other ex-JW (besides you) who claims that such things occurred. That makes the claim suspicious, at the least. The fact that you mention you are reading David Icke's works about lizard aliens and taking it seriously also leads me to question your level of credulity.

    You compare my asking for proof of these claims to proving that God exists. It is true that you can't prove deductively that God exists, without making assumptions that themselves may require some proof. However, there is plenty of evidence to make a strong inductive case for the existence of God. But you are asserting that specific events (such as rituals) occurred at specific places at specific times. Surely there must have been some physical evidence? Or, if these practices are as widespread as you claim, there should be thousands of people who have clear memories of them. Some of those people would surely be willing to step forward and expose their abusers.

    I don't mean to discount your personal experiences. But I get the impression from your posts of a highly suggestible person with a vivid imagination and a very low threshhold of skepticism. There seems to be little support for your contentions from other quarters. And, your accounts exactly fit the pattern of previously debunked accounts of supposed Satanic ritual abuse.

    Interestingly, many of the stories being told about Satanists and their supposed evil rituals are quite similar to stories that were told about Christians in the early centuries A.D. Back then, it was Christians who were supposed to be sacrificing babies, drinking their blood, etc. I'm not saying that no Satanists ever did such vile things, but that I don't believe that it is as widespread as you claim in the population in general, and certainly not among JW's, a world with which I, and many others here, are intimately familiar.

    If you would like to read more about the question of Satanic ritual abuse, there are a couple of web sites I could recommend:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/sra.htm

    http://www.atlantaapologist.org/SATANISM.html

  • Syndromology
    Syndromology

    To NeonMadman and others.

    I'm refering to Satanism as the total of rituals and such used, not to just classical or "popular" Satanim (although why would such a sect admit what they''re doing, they are just keeping secrets alive. It doensn't matter how you call this, it happens. It happened to me and countless others). Why tell what you're really doing to the public if keeping it's secret is better for the agenda. So of course you will not hear things like this in organisation like WTS or from people who openly admit to practising Satanism (Do what thou willst is the whole of the law). I've read into a lot of this about these things but it tells you little of what actualy happens

    Accounting this to a vivid imagination ( i do have one but i'm extremely skeptical) and believing things easy (oh my God, don't ever say that again, you should know! haha) is down playing the things iv said here, wich did happen and still happen to others. U can believe it or not (most don't believen even tho the christian faith tells them about the existence of demons) but like i told you i cannot prove it. So i respect you're opinion about the lack of credulity of it(i read David's book after the fact also because i recognize some of the things he's saying) , wich is logical, it's unbelievable. Just don't turn to saying that in certain words i'm telling fairytales, because i'm not joking around here, i take crimes like these very seriously, you don;t kid around with that. This is not just a figment of my imagination! People always resort to using that argument when they did not see it for themselves or cannot explain it. The guys doing horrible things like this, are just content with that attitude. I didnt expect something different tho

    that other JW's and ex-jw's never heard of this before is no surprise because it's an entirely covert operation . It's an organisation wthinin an organisaton wich is kept very secret. The victim usually disassiocate from the happening. they're mind blocks it. That's why it usually doesn;t come out through them but their behaviour reveals much to the trained i.

    There are "proofs"of existence of God, and also of demons just as there are proofs of an afterlife or proofs of reincarnation. It still is a choice to believe it or not and mostly people will not want to believe the worst because often it is too much. See how jw-dubs still react to the ongoing situation of child molesters in the organisation. They keep their eyes shut. Exactly the same thing is going on with the ritualistic shit, whatever name you want to give it.

    I like to let the subject go now if you don't mind

    peace

    ps. I would like to add, that turning to official outlets of information on Satanism is the worst case of a low threshold of skepticism because that is just the place to manipulate things. Really, websites like these just given openly knowledge wich is just not even half the story. i mean think straight do you really think that because a story got debunked earlier that covers the whole ritual-situation? And that you then know exactly what is going on, nothing is further from the truth. It's a mentality like this that keeps dubs in the organisation because they think the WTS is giving them all the info there is. No offense intended but this is a classical reply wich i have seen alot

    Just an extra point

    Edited by - Syndromology on 15 August 2002 13:32:48

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : trust me non-corporeal beings like demons really do exist and some people at high places in the organisation worship them and pretend to worship Jehovah.

    What?

    : I have seen it happen to myself in a therapy session,

    Oh, nevermind. That explains it.

    Farkel

  • Sirona
    Sirona
    (Do what thou willst is the whole of the law).

    Syndromology I do not think you should be quoting phrases that you know nothing about. That phrase, even though used by Satanists, is used by those of other faiths.

    Moreover, usually the phrase "love is the law, love under will" is added.

    Oh and I think its polite to address peoples replies to you individually.

    Sirona

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    Syndromology:

    Again, please don't take offense at what I'm saying. I'm not calling you a liar or saying that what you remember or have experienced is not valid. Almost anything can happen in individual cases, but to assert that SRA is widespread among JW's is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence to be credible.

    It really seems to me that the sum of your reply to me is, "They are keeping it secret, so of course people aren't going to be told about it. But you can't prove it didn't happen, so it must be true." In logic, this sort of argument is called an "appeal to ignorance". The burden of proof properly rests with the one who expects others to believe his or her assertions. It is not the responsibility of the hearers to disprove what is said, or else to accept it.

    I've used this example several times before in this forum (since appeals to ignorance seem to pop up in here with alarming regularity): I can assert that there are little purple men with orange polka dots living on the planet Pluto. Since you cannot prove that what I say is false, it must therefore be true. Does that make sense to you? Do you now believe that there are little purple men with orange polka dots living on the planet Pluto? Of course not. Because it is my responsibility to prove the existence of the purple guys, not yours to disprove it.

    And your assertions are just like that (in form, at least, if not substance). As I pointed out, some of us here have many decades of association with the Watchtower. As much as we may not like the organization or what it does, our experience tells us that secret satanic affiliations are not common within the organization. That's not to say that it couldn't have happened in rare, isolated cases. But if it were proved that such activities were widespread, those of us with many years in the organization would be astonished. Without offering evidence, you cannot expect the claim to be taken seriously. And to argue that there is no evidence because it is kept secret by the perpetrators flies in the face of common sense. Nothing so widespread could be kept that secret in such a large organization. Some of us here would certainly have been aware of it.

    Edited by - NeonMadman on 15 August 2002 17:5:28

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