Should JESUS be worshipped or prayed to? (page 3)

pomegranate

somebody,

Nice bit of info on Matt. 15:8,9 as rendered in the NWT. Thanks

Just when I thought it was safe to return (waiting for the dust to settle)!

I'm willing to add a bit here, on the basis that some things have been said which need to be looked at from the 'other side of the coin'. But, I'm with you in that I am not interested in getting into a debate over the trinity. So, here are a few comments.

1. On the matter of prayer, I think Jesus' own words should be considered first and foremost:

"So you should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be held holy, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us. And do not put us to the test, but save us from the Evil One." - Matthew 6:9-15 (New Jerusalem Bible)

This is considered to be the 'model prayer', and although I and many others don't believe Jesus meant it to be used like a 'lucky charm' and said endlessly in parrot fashion, it does show that the first words in prayer should be directed to "Our Father", rather than Jesus Christ (the Son).

The account of Stephen speaking directly to Jesus should be taken in context. His words were a consequence of a vision he had where he saw "the Son [Jesus] of man standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55-60 - NJB), so his words were not part of a prayer in the usual sense of the word, but rather a beseeching of the figure he saw before him.

2. Concerning "worship" that is a more involved subject, as we must not simply take the usual English translation as the last word on what it means in every instance. The Greek word often translated "worship" ('proskuneo'), primarily denotes extreme respect and subjection, and according to Strong's Concordance may be derived from the word for 'dog' ('kuon') in the sense of that animal 'licking' (like 'kissing') its master's hand. This same word is used in the Septuagint (LXX - Greek version of the OT) at Genesis 33:3, where Jacob bows ('proskuneo') seven times before his brother Esau, so this word was used appropriately of human beings giving great honour to other human beings, without it constituting 'worship' in the sense that we are accustomed to using it.

3. John 20:28, where Thomas says "My Lord and my God", must be measured by Jesus words at verse 17:

"Jesus said to her [Mary], 'Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God'" (NJB - see also Revelation 3:12 [Greek 'tou theou mou' = 'the god of-me'])

Well you didn't think I'd let that go unchallenged did you? ;o)

4. Maybe it was a 'slip of the tongue' on your part and you meant nothing by it, but the term 'Arian' is synonymous (among members of the 'othodox' Church) with 'heresy' (or 'apostacy', in WTS-speak). I would be obliged if you would refrain from using that term, and simply say 'non-trinitarian'. The reason for this is that although Arius said that Jesus was not God, he also believed that Jesus was created from nothing, which I don't believe, as I don't believe anything came from nothing, rather that all the 'raw' materials were a result of God's power or energy. Obviously, there was a time when the physical universe was 'nothing' in the sense of not being materially manifest, but its manifestion certainly came from a very real source of power, from God through Jesus Christ.

Kind regards.

Jeremiah Lee

The account of Stephen speaking directly to Jesus should be taken in context. His words were a consequence of a vision he had where he saw "the Son [Jesus] of man standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55-60 - NJB), so his words were not part of a prayer in the usual sense of the word, but rather a beseeching of the figure he saw before him.

A beseeching or appeal nonetheless. What do we do specifically so often in prayer? Appeal to, converse. Whether in a vision or in the invisible presence of, is of no difference.

I cited numerous examples of prayer to Jesus earlier on in the thread. Those must be accounted for as well.

3.

>>>John 20:28, where Thomas says "My Lord and my God", must be measured by Jesus words at verse 17:

"Jesus said to her [Mary], 'Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God'" (NJB - see also Revelation 3:12 [Greek 'tou theou mou' = 'the god of-me'])<<<

Jesus having a 'God' over Him is of no problem. In direct accordence with Phil2:6 Jesus subordinated himself to the Father, taking Him on as 'his God'. Likened unto the 'Angel of YHWH' and the alternate interpretation of "name-bearing" Jesus took on the 'role' of man, in order to save man. Note how Jesus, with the exeption of the model prayer given to the disciples, never refers to the Father as "our God" but always "my God" or "my Father". Jesus is his son by nature, rather than by adoption as are we. Now note the distinction made.

As for Jn20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto Him, 'My Lord and my God'. i.e. '

Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou' which literally translates as "The Lord OF me the God OF me". Note how Thomas states this directly to Jesus.

2.
>>>Concerning "worship" that is a more involved subject, as we must not simply take the usual English translation as the last word on what it means in every instance. The Greek word often translated "worship" ('proskuneo'), primarily denotes extreme respect and subjection, and according to Strong's Concordance may be derived from the word for 'dog' ('kuon') in the sense of that animal 'licking' (like 'kissing') its master's hand. This same word is used in the Septuagint (LXX - Greek version of the OT) at Genesis 33:3, where Jacob bows ('proskuneo') seven times before his brother Esau, so this word was used appropriately of human beings giving great honour to other human beings, without it constituting 'worship' in the sense that we are accustomed to using it.<<<

Correct. The Greek word 'proskuneo' can certainly have a broad range of meaning. Needless to say, the word is used as well to denote religious implications. Hence passages like Revelations 19:10 or Acts 7:43 etc...

Hence it is important to note the context of such passages, in order to derive the proper implications. Wherefore we take ourselves to Rev5:13 where ALL of creation, who are distuished from the Father and Son, are giving THE honor THE praise and THE glory to the Father and the Lamb, THE top honor. Note that there is no distinguishing between the worship, honor etc. given to the Father and Son. It is given equally to both, and properly so..cf..Jn5:18; 23.

Additionally note the setting, Heaven. Do you really think the angels and elders within the context are performing mere 'obeisance' to God? The context eliminates the potential for a double-standard.

Thus from Robertson's Word Pictures of the NT:

And to the Lamb

( kai toi arnioi ). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Rev_4:11 and the addition of to kratos (active power) in place of ischus (reserve of strength) in Rev_5:12 .

God bless you in the highest,

Lee

Edited by - Jeremiah Lee on 11 August 2002 8:5:37

ozziepost

G'day Little Toe,

I'm glad you asked for us to keep our replies simple (and no Trinity!!!!).

One major consideration that influences me is that. of Jesus, it is said that "all authority and power" has been given him. Now if he's the "main man", then he's logically the one I want to talk to. Seems clear to me.

Thomas had it right!

Cheers, Ozzie

Edited by - ozziepost on 11 August 2002 8:51:18

Should JESUS be worshipped or prayed to?

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Jeremiah Lee

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