by FusionTheism 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
He said somethink like Martin Luther was almost a Catholic.
freein2004:
Martin Luther was all, a most catholic celebate priest, a bible student an apostate, that was disfellowshipped and married a like-minded nun. more or less got Europe into a 30 year war.
A man of conscious, a sincere true believer, the most dangerous.
From Fusion Theists post:
"The Catholic Church took the preaching work more seriously than the Reformers... Who brought the Gospel into China? ... It was the Catholic Church."
If you could read the text on this stele, it would be obvious that David Splane's understanding of 'who did what in China,' is seriously mistaken.
The above stele, which is dated to 781 CE records some details of the previous 150 years of a certain church's history (which takes us back to the early 7th C.CE). The church referred to is NOT the Catholic Church, but a West Asian church, often called the Nestorian church, but likely more accurately, "The Church of the East."
There is sufficient evidence to indicate the the Church of the East was quite active. Here's another image:
which is often interpreted as a Palm Sunday celebration in a Church of the East. (Some scholars dispute that interpretation).
However, it may be that this form of Christianity did not endure, as during the Anti-Buddhist proscription, which also banned certain other religions, including the Church of the East, circa 845 CE, a monk reported to his patriarch (986 CE):
Christianity is extinct in China; the native Christians have perished in one way or another; the church has been destroyed and there is only one Christian left in the land.
I like the euphemistic 'we've had problems ourselves'
Indeed....
May be D.S. was thinking about the Philippines, Catholic country, that China now, dredge by dredge works to bring into it's 200 mile reach territorial waters.
Laika: I like the euphemistic 'we've had problems ourselves' yeah, he is wrong there too; it is not only past tense "had",- the problems are showing right now.
I really think that the WTBTS is wishing it had been more Catholic. I believe they are secretly jealous of the finance, the control and the esteem that the Catholic Church has had for so long. And now there is this an excellent Pope....
The WTBTS is never invited to interfaith meetings. They would go, I am sure they would.....if only they were invited, but they never are.
Leaving sex scandals out of the picture for awhile................
I have noticed that the WTBTS is copying many of the practices that the church has done for centuries. Except that the Church has had centuries to refine itself, change many of it's doctrines and move in keeping with the trends of this world. I am no Catholic, never have been, but it is obvious that many of the catechisms that had to be "learned" by rote in order to become a Catholic; many of which had no scriptural basis......was a system of indoctrination that is very old and well applied, long before the WT had existed. The WTBTS method of cautioning against asking too many "whys" is not original at all. For, the Catholic Church has always adopted this approach.
This strategy was adopted by the WT. Too many why's and your're considered somewhat unteachable or a threat to the current beliefs of the religion. The difference is, that, the Catholic Church wields more authority and has this ancient historical back ground to lend credence to it's very existence. It has massive archives of ancient texts, libraries that would make any young religions eyes water with envy.........art work and well.............the list goes on.
The little pinky rings that many of the GB have worn made me think of the rings that those in the Catholic order wear, and still do. I honestly feel that they are very envious of this very old religion. If they could in some way, undo all the hateful attacks that were made against Catholicism in the past...........they would. I'm convinced of this. Notice how many of the JW material is backing away from out right attacks.......Yes, they do still like to point the finger at worldly religion. Quietly though..........they, the WT are subtly changing their approach. Catholics believed in a physical resurrection long before the WT. So many have believed in a resurrection, an Armageddon.........and they have moved past hammering it into their followers.
The WT is stuck for now in remaining (embarrassingly) hooked to this teaching and many others that they have pilfered from main stream but respected older religions.
The WT has forayed into politics and has stayed there. No matter how they dress this up, they take on the politics of any society they take to court under the banner of "freedom of religion" or human rights. They were with the UN and they participate with the OSCE. They have become very sophisticated about double dealing.
I'm getting a little angry at the moment as I find this has all been a sham. They have reduced the name of Jehovah to a couple of initials on a badge or a banner, and sell pins and calenders........all sorts of rubbish with a scriptural quote to appear spiritual And all the while they cash in the money. They are not so original, not one piece of history is theirs to lay claim to in a theological sense. It has all been done by others, long before a hundred years of their history ever commenced.
If it were not for other older religions, they wouldn't have a bible.
Rant is over for now. I'll stop.
I suspect that Splane was talking about the later missionary work of the Catholic order, the Society of Jesus (Jesuits), it was far more successful and was able to colonise (in a religious sense) Korea, which remains the most Christianised East Asian country with about 30% of the population claiming to be Christian.
Almost simultaneously with the Jesuit mission, Dominican Catholics were working in the south, from their base in the Philippines. You can still find Catholic churches in the south of China that date from that era. It was conflict between the Dominicans and Jesuits that eventually led to another ban on Christianity by the Qing Emperor Kangxi.
A Wikipedia entry notes:
Kangxi was also fond of the Jesuits' respectful and unobtrusive manner; they spoke the Chinese language well, and wore the silk robes of the elite.[15] In 1692, when Fr. Thomas Pereira requested tolerance for Christianity, Kangxi was willing to oblige, and issued the Edict of Toleration,[16] which recognized Catholicism, barred attacks on their churches, and legalized their missions and the practice of Christianity by the Chinese people.[17]
However, controversy arose over whether Chinese Christians could still take part in traditional Confucian ceremonies and ancestor worship, with the Jesuits arguing for tolerance and the Dominicans taking a hard-line against foreign "idolatry". The Dominican position won the support of Pope Clement XI, who in 1705 sent Charles-Thomas Maillard De Tournon as his representative to Kangxi, to communicate the ban on Chinese rites.[13][18] On 19 March 1715, Pope Clement XI issued the papal bull Ex illa die, which officially condemned Chinese rites.[13]
In response, Kangxi officially forbade Christian missions in China, as they were "causing trouble".[19]
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_Emperor - under the sub-heading, Christianity
It can be argued that more advanced western astronomical technology(as in the above illustration) was the specific area that interested the Imperial court.
In other areas of technology, China was in advance of the west, as John Hobson demonstrates in his book, "The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation," and the Jesuits channeled this technical information back to Europe.
An example, the French King Louis XIV, in 1685 sent six Jesuits to China, specifically to act as, what we would now call, 'commercial spies.' The French Academy of Science drew up a long list of topics for them to explore and send back as information about (including) scientific, military, agricultural and manufacturing subjects.
Splane may well have meant what you point out. However, they, the witnesses have only been around for a hundred or so years. And is heavily reliant on the work of other scholars of the bible for the most basic of doctrines and such..
The missionaries that you speak of, are proof alone that the JW religion is not the only religion to preach. Not only in a door to door sense, but in travelling from country to country sense, WTBTS cannot keep claiming this preaching work is proof of their more "perfectness;ss" over other religions.
Even now, on the border of N Korea and China, there are Christian groups that risk their lives saving those who manage to escape the horrors of N Korean rule. They do this from a sense of Christian love in the best sense.
Your' information was very interesting though. I find it interesting that in 1421 China was the first country to map, with any greatness........the worlds oceans and travel the globe. They were highly developed and great merchants with their own system of beliefs that had served them well for the past 8 thousand or so years............to the best of my current reading knowledge,.
Not by a long shot.
Prologos: David Splane always had a habit of taken off on a tangent on subjects he must have nursed for a while. now it is official.
Prologos: I dont understand your english wordplay here: taken off on a tangent* of subjects. does it mean go off on a tangent, and must have nursed ...sorry i am not native speakers.
TheWonderofYou: I am not a native English writer either. Splane could be counted on to take an obscure scripture, subject and spring a surprise, deliver a novel application of it. He must have done this in serious preparations. Comparable to Nathan Knorr, who had a prepared action plan for efficiency in his desk drawer. Not that all of David's desks had drawers, but his preparing of wt-profound explanations ran deep. Such isolationist studies are bound to produce unique results.
It would serve the GB well to float these novel ideas here first as trial balloons, read the valid objections, and then publish the sanitized versions.
* by tangent I meant going straight, out of the expected CIRCULAR reasoning of many scripted deliveries.
