I have apologized to those I have effected while being a witness. I told my family I was sorry for not being with them when they needed me for the last 5 years. I was supposed to be a role model for my brother while he was growing up (dad died a while ago) and I wasn't there, too busy spending time with "Good association". He got into some trouble which I might have been able to stop if I was around for him during those times. I don't need to apologize to the general public, because I never dragged any of them into the Troof. I believe Ray's actions apologized enough for his previous behavior.
Does Ray Franz owe us an apology?
Sleepy I fail to see where I made any accusations. You just reposted part of your post the way you see it. And I might add you edited the original post.
EDITED: to add the above sentence makes no sense, because sleepy yet again edited another post/reply in this thread, this time addressed to me. Agruhhhhhhhhh
This is how I see it;
Does Ray Franz owe us an apology?
(Ok lets add this on)Do those who are or were governing body members have a greater amount of responsability than witnesses in general?At what point do we stop being victims and become instigaters?
This may have been discussed before but I'm not sure.So sorry if it has.
Anyway does Ray Franz who was once part of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses,that governed our lives, owe us an apology for the part he played?.Maybe he has apologised, (Though I can't remmeber that standing out in his books, but I might have missed it)or was he just a victim like us?Should he do more to help witnesses, or has he done enough or is there no more he could have done.
Does he share in the blame for the governing bodies disissions that resulted in the deaths of witnesses due to refusal of blood , persecusion(Malawi)etc.
Have you forgiven him? ~~ sleepy
I read from top to bottom and cant be expected to see where you may end one question and start another. As you read the post this way as you just posted above.
"Have you forgiven him?
If we do hold him partly responable, how do you feel about your part in preaching the message of jehovahs witnesses, are you responsable for other peoples deaths and messed up lives,by say, taking a stand on blood and giving talks praising pioneering ;and encouraging others to do the same?"
The point being if we blame others what about us? ~~sleepy
I guess this is a prime example of trying to express oneself in a one deminsional world may be misunderstood.
I don't believe "I went off the handle" but that is how you see it. As I saw that the question/s were biased and uncalled for. MO.
Edited by - cassiline on 1 August 2002 13:5:19
No, Ray doesn't owe anyone an apology IMO. Neither do I.
Most people act in a way that seems appropriate at the time, only hindsight makes us realise that we have made an error. We can either learn by it and move on or fall into the trap of berating ourselves with guilt, in itself a very selfish emotion.
Ray realised the religion was wrong so he left. He then set about telling everyone why the religion was wrong, and in the process helped many of us to clarify our thoughts.
I left because I too realised the religion was wrong, but this was because the religion was wrong for me. I felt starved of the life that I craved, so I left so that I could enjoy that life. I'm still enjoying it!
No, I will never apologise to anyone whom I helped to convert to dubbism. We all make our choices eventually.
E-Man, You left out the H in IMHO!! hehe
Indeed I did!
" I don't believe "I went off the handle" but that is how you see it".
>> And the way some feel about Ray is valid...AS THEY SEE IT...in THEIR mindseye. Some of us aren't convinced or satisfied that he has indeed done 'all he could do'. And we aren't about to go ito details as to why we feel this. We are very Aware! that Ray has people who will defend him to the death for what he has done SO FAR to expose WTBTS corruption and deception. Yet for us, those are just "how you see it". We do not see it that way, nor do we accept it as 'all he could or can do'. That just isn't realistic to expect we see Ray as you see him.
"As I saw that the question/s were biased and uncalled for. MO."
>>MO is that this thread is VALID and holds merit in it's quest(ions). Why such strong defense for him? Why not accept ALL questios re: Ray Franz as merit? Why so angry over and 'suspicious'?
Please accept this post as....MINE. My thoughts, feelings here are....MINE. You won't change them just because it doesn't agree with your opinion or thoughts or feelings about Ray Franz or ANY GB, or EX GB member. KIDS ARE DEAD BECAUSE OF THESE MEN. Even Ray. That is how I...I....I....feel and think sleepy. Thanks for asking. I expect NO ONE to think or feel as I do on this 'matter'. On anything, for that matter! So bash away folks. Tell me what a heartless bitch I am for FEELING this way about a man who was a part of moneumetal tragedies. Two books?? So what! That was yearsssss ago. That was then, this is NOW. What MORE could he do, before his death, to expose much more than he has already revealed? Anything? How could we truly know for sure?
This may pain (anger, frustration, sadness) many to read such raw and honest thoughts and feelings about a man many hold as a 'hero' in THEIR mindseye. Yet, are we, who feel the opposite entitled to OUR pain?
Cassiline, I sincerely hope you see this as nothing personal towards you and YOUR feelings and thoughts re: Ray. It has everything to do with ME, and nothing to do with YOU. Your opinions (feelings, thoughts) are VALID too, 100percet. As are we all.
Does Ray Franz owe us an apology?
An apology is a defense by argumentation. Ray Franz has tried to make amends and for me he has more than succeeded. His confessions have cleared up all the mysteries that existed in my mind relative to the Jehovah's Witness group.
I owe him thanks and I have thanked him personally. He has delivered to me far beyond anything he might have owed to me. Thanks Ray!
What I have failed to do is accept all of my own responsibility for being lazy and choosing ignorance and staying a part of the group as long as I did. I was responsible for being irresponsible.
He apologised years ago. I believe in forgiveness and not the eternal hell of never ending guilt. His 2 books liberated me and when he passes away I will travel the many miles and stand besides many of you here.
I see some people have very strong feelings about the whole Franz issue and maybe feel I shoudn't even ask such questions.
Well I'm sorry but not being able to ask questions is part of The JW mind set.
Remmeber Ray was pushed he didn't jump.It was only after he critised the society mainly on the issue of whether all witnesses go to heaven!Remmember the paedophile issue, blood and the rest was all there in the 70's as well.
But I have no grudges against him.His case just shows to a greater degree what was wrong with most witnesses.We were so concerened with our own salvation that we gave our lives and promoted false beliefs that hurt others.
What lead me to the ray franz issue is this, as witness some were more zealous than others.Some were iregular publisher while others were eager to preach , preach , preach.
They went as far as regular pioneering , serving as elders, circuit overseers, in bethal, on the branch, in the governing body.They showed more zeal as witnesses than most others, were privy to more information and had more responsability.The effect they could have on the lives on individual witnesses was far, far higher than many of us.
So why did they do this, for love of their brothes?I don't know.But lets look at this , some were willing to serve full time in the service or as elders or even higher postions using up all their energies, yet are they willing to do the same now, they have left, to right their wrongs?
Well actually I dont think it possible to right their wrongs.But the point stands , why so zealous then and not now?This includes me.I have nothing against Ray , I have never met him and am sure he is a nice guy.But he accepted that responsabilty to rule over others, and must take any flak he recieves for that as I would have to if I had been in the same position.
Edited by - sleepy on 1 August 2002 15:22:6
Edited by - sleepy on 1 August 2002 16:52:10
Thanks for mentioning the JW mindset. Part of what is missing in allot of JW's/XJW's is forgiveness. We were never taught much about that because guilt from "not serving Jehovah whole souled" hung over our heads. It was placed there by the Society for selfish reasons. Even the word 'Grace' was removed from the Witness Bible and replaced with the paraphrase "the undeserved kindness of Christ". How clever was that. If something is "undeserved" should you ask for it? The WTBTS is diabolical and the JW mindset is unforgiving.