Lots of Jehovah Bashing in Here

by Perfection Seeker 57 Replies latest jw experiences

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi PerfectionSeeker,

    You bring up some interesting questions. JanH's comments reflect mine very well, but I'll add my two cents.

    On the question of "Jehovah bashing":

    Most people on this board are not bashing a real live "Jehovah God", but a variety of concepts that have the label "Jehovah". The JWs' concept of "Jehovah" is supposedly one that is the embodiment of love, but as we all know, that's just nonsense. The JW notion is really one of a hard-nosed war God that cares nothing for his intelligent creatures and slaughters them wholesale for things they are usually not responsible for. So it's really the nonsensical and terrible JW concept that is often being bashed.

    Of the above "Jehovah bashers", some actually believe in the God of the Bible and some don't. The believers have a rather different concept in their own minds from the JWs, but the biblical concept is essentially not all that different from the JW concept -- if you believe the Old Testament stories -- and so these believers really have basically the same terrible concept of God that the JWs do.

    Of those who don't believe in the God of the Bible, I see two categories -- those who believe in some other kind of God or supreme being, and those who don't. Those in the first category don't bash a real "Jehovah", but the nonsensical concept described above. Those in the second category tend to bash the concepts of "God" and "supreme being" in general, so the God of the Bible is not singled out.

    Of those who don't believe in a supreme being, I see two categories -- atheists and agnostics. I think of an atheist as someone who believes that there is no such thing as a supreme being, and an agnostic as someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in such a being. Of course, one could split hairs endlessly over precise definitions and beliefs, but I don't want to get into that.

    Personally, I count myself as an agnostic atheist because I believe that there is no such thing as "the God of the Bible", and I nearly believe that there is no supreme being at all, but because I cannot prove the latter, I cannot justify not leaving some mental room open for the possibility of a supreme being, or of some powerful entities that for all practical purposes are supreme beings.

    I was raised a JW and so I know the full range of reasons they and Christians in general like to believe in a God, and I know the reasons they set forth as "proofs" of the existence of this God. I have done a good deal of research into these things and I can prove that nearly all of these reasons are bunk. As you yourself admit, you and others have an emotional NEED to believe, and so you give in to it.

    When you pray, you set in motion complex mental processes that allow you to solve problems unconsciously. These processes can be turned on by means other than prayer. For example, I once purchased a sort of self-help book that described precisely how the author would set his mind on a problem, psych himself up to solve the problem unconsciously, and then forget about it. After awhile, his mind would usually come up with some kind of solution. This was certainly not prayer, but it had exactly the same results you describe.

    For many on this board, prayer has never had any demonstrable results. During the time I was searching for answers about my journey out of the JWs and looking for the "real" God, I "threw my burdens on Jehovah" through prayer. I got zero response. Same goes for others on this board. Why beat a dead horse? We had it demonstrated to ourselves that, despite the sincerest of motives, if a God exists, he wanted nothing to do with us. So we returned the favor. Obviously these experiences call into question the very existence of a God, since zero response could be due to an unresponsive God -- which Christians deny God is -- or to the fact that no God exists.

    Indeed, why not pray to Odin with the same fervor you do to the Christian God? If you want to believe hard enough, surely Odin will answer you.

    Many who leave the JWs jump right into another cultish group. Personally, I count a goodly fraction of Fundamentalist types as cultish, since they're not much different in spirit from the JWs. Others join all sorts of more mainstream religions, or get into the more way-out sorts of groups. However, a goodly fraction begins to question the very foundations of religious belief. Most of the time it turns out that such questioning, done objectively, leads to agnosticism or atheism. That's because objectively, there is no real evidence that a supreme being exists. Note that "gut feel" is not real evidence.

    Once one throws off the shackles of an emotional need to believe in some higher power, one is open to looking at all sorts of evidence. One actually becomes hungry for knowledge. One finds that what one once thought of as a hunger for knowledge was really nothing more than a narrow desire to justify one's emotional belief in God.

    I've seen this happen time and time again: a person quits the JWs and begins searching for answers outside the religion. This leads to an ever-widening search, and if the person has an open mind he or she begins to realize how narrow the straits of religious belief were. Gradually they realize that there is no foundation for religious belief other than an emotional need.

    On morals:

    You wonder why anyone who does not believe in the Bible's God would be "moral". Let's define "moral" in terms of the Golden Rule, which is about as good a definition as I can come up with: A moral person does as little harm as possible to his fellowman as possible, and does as much good for them as possible. Of course, this is a rather self-referential definition, since it's inherently subjective: Do (or do not) unto others as you would have others (not) do unto you. I needn't try to be more precise than this.

    Given the above subjective definition, it is obvious that atheists, agnostics and believers can be moral. The reason non-believers can be moral is that they can have empathy for their fellowmen. On the other hand, believers have a serious problem: while they certainly can have empathy, they must also contend with the charge that they are moral ONLY because they fear that God will kill them if they are not. Therefore the moral atheist has an ethical advantage over the moral believer -- he can prove that he is moral by choice, not because of a death threat.

    I have many friends and relatives who are atheists, and who are far more moral in the above sense than most of the Christians I have ever known. So for me, observation of actual human behavior proves my points.

    On the purpose of life:

    You've spoken several times about your need to find meaning and purpose in life. Yet you've not once actually said what that means to you.

    For JWs, the purpose of life is to do God's will. Well what the hell does that mean? Examine the problem carefully: What is "meaning"? What is "purpose"? Is a "meaning and purpose of life" of doing God's will any better or worse than, say, of just enjoying the life you have? What makes any particular meaning or purpose better than any other?

    Until you can clearly define these things and talk about them in concrete terms, your words will remain a mere emotional expression. I certainly understand this. The question is: Do you understand it?

    AlanF

  • dubla
    dubla

    great post alan. i dont always agree with everything you say (obviously considering i still believe in god, and even the bible, though lately ive found myself heavily doubting the bible....but thats another subject), but you always make a whole lot of sense man. i think thats why i, and so many other posters enjoy your posts so much. you really put things succinctly, and make the reader think. thanks.

    aa

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Alan, Perfection, et al...

    Whoever he/she/it is, whatever he/she/it is called, however long and by whatever means he/she/it used to bring the universe into being, it has yet to be demonstrated that the intricacy/interdepence of the biosphere and all life/the split-second precision of the celestial bodies, etc. can emerge from chaos. Doesn't all empirical human experience teach us that order proceeds from intelligence and ordered systems left untended disintergrate?

    Of course, there are hypotheses that postulate alternative answers to The Great Questions of the origins and maintenance of cosmos and biosphere, etc., but these seem far more fanciful and hence require greater --excuse the word -- faith --of their proponents -- than any belief in a Great Originator/Sustainer.

  • Valis
    Valis
    Doesn't all empirical human experience teach us that order proceeds from intelligence and ordered systems left untended disintergrate?

    Room, I would say no to your question...emprical evidence indicates the natural order of the planet earth was doing much better without human intelligence around, no depletion of ozone, mass destruction of species, war, etc...even the Chad man, however long agao he really existed, lived in an ordered system of sorts, without "intelligence" per se as we might define it. Brain hurts...must drink beer..

    I'm a Jehovah basher for lots of reasons, where shall I start? The bashing is usually directed at people and concepts, not always just JWs either..just to clarify.

    17 years of jehovah this and Jehovah that from people I assumed were my friends and family

    The eternal insults to one's intelligence by the WTBS while in and out of the borg which are evident just by reading personal experiences here and thier own website for Dog's sake

    The consistent lack of a coherent family all my life because of the incessant following of JW rules by those around me, some relative will have little if anything to do w/me....

    My parent's attempts to take my children to the KH and sneak in JW cartoons like thier Noah video, despite my wishes

    Dead family members, my cousin who went crazy after help from the loving BOE, my grandmother Prindle who wouldn't do blood transfusions or bone marrow transplants

    At least 8 family members (some other new families we learned after the fact he did the same thing to) that were abused by the same man who remained a Witless for many years, he still lives somewhere in Irving texas BTW....he should hope he dies before we ever meet....

    My home schooled brother who can barely write a legible sentence and is now incarcerated and has little hope of a decent life, so much for keeping him away from bad association....

    The sister w/Down's Syndrome who will go to live w/JWs when my parents die and will probably disappear from my life entirely once that happens

    The very concept of jehovah or God or whatever leaves little if anything to be desired. Folks would be better off getting a good self help book and calling it good. There are so many other ways people can get the "feel good" reassurances that life has meaning, yet many are not strong enough in the thinking dept to see that. Not trying to offend my friends here who believe in Dog really, just calling it like I see it.

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • LeslieV
    LeslieV

    It does seem that most humans have the need to worship. What you worship has to do with how your were raised, where you were born, emotional and spiritual need.

    I even as a JW would always remark that people all over the world are sincere in their way of expressing worship to God..or God's. Of course I would always preface that statement that they were sincerely wrong. Makes me shudder now.

    I know for myself I have not entirely given up the belief that there is a God, but how Jehovah was explained at the KH is not even someone I would want to be around, let alone worship. I feel kindness & compassion is preferable to judgement and condemnation.

    Leslie

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Thanks, dubla. I certainly try to get people to think. There are few greater pleasures in life than to come to a new realization about something you were ignorant about. I've had many such pleasures.

    Room215, your argument is absolutely stock-standard. A stock-standard rejoinder is this: If it is true that "the intricacy/interdepence of ... all life ..." cannot "emerge from chaos" and that order proceeds only from intelligence, then how do you personally explain the existence of that most ordered intelligence of all -- a Supreme Creator? It does no good to postulate that this "God" has always existed, because that immediately allows that in an apparent infinitude of time and space in the "macrocosmic all", anything at all can happen, no matter how improbable we ignorant humans might think it is, which means that in our corner of the universe, our possibly uncreated existence ought to be no more surprising to you than the existence of God is.

    AlanF

  • tkmmorgan
    tkmmorgan

    Hi all,

    First off I would like to state that this is a fantastic board! Contrasting with the JWs it allows us to communicate with others who may or may not agree with our view of religion and God, and from most of what Ive seen, it doesnt turn into a hateful mud-slinging contest. Not only that, no one has to worry about being DFd for disagreeing with someone else! AlanF and JanH in particular have very well thought out posts. Since both of you are well-read, intelligent guys, and AlanF seems to have at least a small bit of room for the probability that God may exist, I would be interested to find out if either of you (and anybody else for that matter) have read Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, and if so what did you think? I guess one thing that needs to be set out here is that Im in total agreement that the concept of Jehovah as taught by the JWs (and many other religious groups) is nonsensical and not Biblical. The notion of some fire-breathing entity that lives to ignore us until its time to destroy us, like some spoiled brat who wants new toys, is ridiculous I think. That being said, I do, however believe in the God of the Bible, who is infinitely different from the "Jehovah" concept of the JW's. AlanF, I understand your personal experiences with prayer yielding zero response, I have myself though had experiences where it yielded results that were independent of myself. It is most definitely possible that this was mere coincidence. I choose though to believe in God. It is also possible that for me, God exists inside me (and I think in all of us) and as such I am deeply saddened by your statement:

    We had it demonstrated to ourselves that, despite the sincerest of motives, if a God exists, he wanted nothing to do with us.
    Dont misunderstand, I dont pity you or anything so condescending nor am I attempting to patronize but I believe that we all lose something, however intangible, when we lose faith in something of greater power than ourselves. Anyway, since this thread seems to have become about the probability of God existing or if He is really our s ubconscious mind. I would like to throw out something Im sure some of you are familiar with--Pascal's Wager.

    Pascals Wager is a mathematical argument which requires you to bet on Gods existence. Pascal himself says this:

    "Let us examine this point and declare: 'Either God exists, or He does not.' To view shall we incline? Reason cannot decide for us one way or the other: we are separated by an infinite gulf. At the extremity of this infinite distance a game is in progress, where either heads or tails may turn up. What will you wager? According to reason you cannot bet either way; according to reason you can defend neither proposition . 'Both are wrong. The right thing is not to wager at all.' Yes, but a bet must be laid. There is no option: you have joined the game."

    The wager is not proof of Gods existence but instead is proof that is wiser to believe in God than not. According to decision theory, reason requires you to go for maximum gain. Either God exists or He doesnt. The gain of the possible outcomes are as follows where x,y,z are values not specified beyond the requirement that they are not infinite

    God exists

    God does not exist

    Wager for God

    infinite

    x

    Wager against God

    y

    z

    Mathematically speaking then where p is your positive, non-zero (however small but greater than zero) probability for Gods existence.

    F(for God)= infinite*p+x*(1-p)= infinite

    So your expected gain from belief in God is infinite. Wagering against God however is:

    A(against God)= y*p+z*(1-p)

    This is finite. Since reason requires you go for the greatest gain an infinite gain is better than a finite gain. Put another way-

    God exists

    God does not exist

    Wager for God

    Infinite reward

    Lose hedonistic

    Lifestyle(x)

    Wager against God

    Lose infinite reward

    (y)

    Gain hedonistic

    Lifestyle (z)

    Either God is or He's not. If God is not, it does not matter much. If God is, then betting there is no God will bring loss while betting God is will bring reward. Because the latter is infinitely more desirable than the former, the outcome of the conditional probability problem is clear, even if you believes that the probability of God's existence is very small.

    I have a feeling Im going to get slaughtered on this! Oh well. For the record, I dont agree with this, stating in essence that you should believe in God just because it makes better mathematical sense and there are admittedly lots of problems with it not the least of which being if you are a total atheist then your possibility for Gods existence is zero which destroys the whole thing. There is no harm in having faith in God. Until you begin to force your way of belief or disbelief onto someone else it really affects only you. But I love to get differing points of view, that is how we grow, mature, and shape our lives. So Im going to throw this out and see what comes back!

    And for Perfection Seeker- Im glad for you that you still have faith in God. Since it works for you it is correct for you whether He exists or not.

    Edited by - tkmmorgan on 11 July 2002 16:22:22

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi tkmmorgan,

    I haven't seen you on this board before, so -- welcome!

    No, no one gets "DFd" on this board for disagreeing with someone else, although there is plenty of mud slinging from time to time. Sometimes, people with thin skins get bent out of shape simply by having someone disagree with them, and they scream bloody murder about being censored or whatever. Eventually they usually learn how to handle disagreements and not take it as a personal attack.

    I read part of Mere Christianity, and, to be perfectly frank, it was so insipid that I could not get through it.

    On the efficacy of prayer, if you think it works for you, that's fine by me. It never worked for me, and that's fine, too. I'm not the least bit bothered, although it took awhile to get over my chagrin to learn that absolutely nothing that I learned as a child was working out the way my religious teachers claimed. I figure, c'est la vie. I know that others on this board have had similar experiences.

    I don't think we lose anything at all by not believing, or losing belief, in a power greater than ourselves. On the contrary, it has been an incredibly freeing experience for me and my family to realize that we're on our own, and do not have to take into account some "greater power" who is apparently either non-existent or at least is not operating in our vicinity. I'm quite happy not to be looking over my shoulder every instant and judging myself.

    I think that Pascal's Wager is a horrible oversimplification of a complex issue, one that cannot logically be reduced to an either-or proposition. It's actually an excellent example of a logical fallacy, one that attempts to win an argument by excluding all but two choices, both of which result in one side "winning" the argument. I won't bother to point out more than one of the specifics of the fallacy, since once you know it's a fallacy it's easy to spot the problems. One problem is assigning a value of expected "gain" to belief in God. By what processing of reasoning does one assign a value of "infinite" to this? This merely shows that such mathematical "proofs" about God's existence are silly.

    In more concrete terms, belief in a God can certainly bring gain. It can also bring much loss. Gain and loss can come from non-belief as well. It all depends on the specifics of what a person does with his belief. So in a very real sense, belief in God or lack thereof does not necessarily have any connection with the way one's life works out. This depends strongly, though, on other factors, including most prominently the personality one is given through genetics and that one develops through experience.

    "God" has no bearing on my life at this time. I do not account for its existence or lack of existence in anything. It is simply irrelevant, and I am not aware of any supposed "spiritual hole" that many religious people speak about. My sense of spirituality transcends religiosity and is much more tied up with an appreciation for people, knowledge and life itself than it is with any notion of a higher power.

    I figure that if there really is a nice God after all, in the end he's smart enough to figure out all of us foolish people who think we have good motives but were too stupid to understand whatever evidence there was to have believed in him. In that case I'd like to have a few words with God. But if not, then so be it; I will continue to have no influence with this God. I'm comfortable with all of this.

    AlanF

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    I would have to agree with Alan on this one that your formulas are gross simplifications of a more complex issue.

    What about the aspect if there is a God/Creator, does he give a damn? Is it a god as described in scripture? Who's scriptures? It can't really be boiled down to does he exist or not. All your results were formulated on a Christian bias (judgement vs damnation).

    Interesting argumentation nonetheless. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

    Kismet

  • Valis
    Valis

    tk..I can see where you're going w/the semi logic lesson, but what happens when the concept of infinite reward means getting reincarnated, and not always for the "better"? I know its a relative term, but I need beer before finding a better explanation..*L* Can you apply your diagram to other religions besides a Christian one and still make sense of it all, especially where "infinite reward" has various meanings? I guess that what I was trying to get at....I'm no AlanF, but I hope you see where I'm coming from. Anyway, I also wanted to say that hedonism and the non belief in God do not always go hand in hand, nor does believing in God necessitate a non hedonistic lifestyle. In my experience, shedding the whole belief in a diety, has brought me the greatest gain. I'll wager I'll get my infinite reward when I turn into dust and maybe get swept all over the universe when that big asteroid finally does a number on the planet.

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

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