Ignorant Atheist Talk Show Host Destroyed by Agnostic Dr. Bart Erhman! Topic "Did Jesus and Paul exist?" (page 3)

Witness My Fury

This site's users have matured over the years and so the site has shifted into one that has an increasingly hard lean towards truth, evidence and a low tolerance of bullshit.

Some dont like it that way because their pink fluffy warm and fuzzy fantasies get torn to shreds, unless they can be backed up with good solid evidence. I like it that way. The truth is the truth where ever you find it. Sure, some get a bit carried away in that quest but an honest seeker of truth will work past any offence caused and feel the refreshing effect logic has on the brain.

So then, are you open minded or just pretending to be?

OnTheWayOut

Notice that he starts with "I've written an entire book on what he [Jesus] said and did, ....(laughter) and for him to say and do anything, he had to exist."

So Bart starts from a biased point of view with some credibility to lose. That's similar to priests and JW's not being willing to entertain the idea that they could be wrong in their world view because they are invested in it.

He then dismisses anyone who writes a book suggesting that Jesus doesn't exist as not a serious scholar, but just someone who wants to make money writing a sensationalist story. Doesn't that sound familiar too?

There are good debaters and Bart is one of them. This host is not bad, but is not up at all on the subject, he is just a guy who hears what people say. If a financial expert disagrees with Steve Harvey about the financial stability of the dollar and an expert on botany disagrees with Ellen Degeneres about how to water cactuses, does that prove that the experts are correct? NO, it proves that they know much more about the subject than the talk show hosts they talk with.

Evidence for Jesus outside of the doctrinal writings is very slim. He may or may not have existed. It is highly possible that he is a composite of others.

Bart admits he has no personal investment in "Paul." That seems to indicate that he admits to his personal investment in Jesus. On the subject of Paul, it is highly more established that he did exist and wrote some of what is credited to him. But reading what experts are sure of, Paul's Jesus is a very mythical figure and Paul does not help to establish a real person in a real timeline. Even if Paul's existence is established, using anything he did or wrote to help establish Jesus would be like using the writings of the miraculous events surrounding Siddhartha Gautama to prove these things happened in the establishing of the Buddha.

Pistoff

I will also state that no serious Bible scholar doubts the historicity of a man named Jesus who inspired followers; other than the fact that a man named Jesus lived, developed the following and was crucified, there is nothing other than the Gospels, which are not history, but theology.

It's one thing to say that Paul invented Jesus, but another thing altogether to say that Paul could invent a character that inspired devoted followers.

The historical reference and the body of early followers are most consistent with their having been a real man named Jesus, likely a very charismatic, cynic sage who made the mistake of visiting Jerusalem.

Hold Me-Thrill Me

Witness My Fury: This site's users have matured over the years and so the site has shifted into one that has an increasingly hard lean towards truth, evidence and a low tolerance of bullshit.

Below is what a JW coming to this forum will read on the welcoming page-

Are you the 'Watchtower'?

No - we're an independent community site offering support for both current and former Jehovah's Witnesses and anyone else who has been affected by the beliefs, doctrines and practices of the Jehovah's Witness religion as governed by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (WTB&TS).

We are not affiliated with the WTB&TS in any way and we take your privacy and security very seriously doing our utmost to protect your identity and provide a friendly, tolerant and informative environment where you can ask questions, share information and make new friends. Membership is completely free and anonymous so why not join today! (underlining added)

Witness My Fury, perhaps you should ask the site owner to amend this welcome to something more in line with what you say this forum has become. Note there is nothing in that welcome which disallows, discourages or ridicules religious discussions. There is nothing in that welcome which favors atheists over believers. Neither is there anything in that welcome which demands that believers provide evidence of their beliefs.

There is also nothing in that welcome which informs Christians of religions outside of Jehovah's Witnesses that their personal belief in God and Christ is...bullshit.

Frank

MagicMItchJensen

What views from Dr. Carrier did you think have merit and will change how we think Christianity sprung from the First Century followers of Jesus or in Carrier's case (Followers of Jesus through revelation, not a physical relationship or being trained by their teacher, instead Peter or Paul might have been taught about Jesus by visions like Mohammed and Joseph Smith).

I like talking about different subjects, to answer WMFury's question there is no reason why I would pretend to be open minded, often it's people who challenge you that have closed their mind. Are you still opened minded even if the facts were to lead you to another 180 degree change in views?

Doltologist

Phizzy

I err on that side too, if no such figure at all existed, where on earth did the very early sects/cults that followed him come from, and why ?

There was a trend occurring at the time that jesus was supposed to have existed. It's explained well in the Carrier vid. Basically, older religions were being merged to form new ones and sky gods were being given 'earthly' existences. If you really look at what supposedly happened to jesus, such as the resurrection etc., you will find that they happened to many sky gods before him. The parallels between jesus and other sky gods is either uncanny or jesus was based on one or more of these sky gods. I go for the latter because I still have issues with the fact that there were no contemporary reports of jesus. Also, between jesus' death and the gospels there was a sufficient period of time for all those that could have known jesus to have died. Therefore, they weren't in a position to dispute the accuracy of the gospels. IMHO, the jesus myth is a hoax and not even a good one. That said, people have fallen for it - or have the? Don't forget how many people christards had to kill to get their message across (100 - 200 million).

Phizzy

I agree that the Gospels are part of the Jesus Mythos, but the fact that a huge industry of Myth and Legend has grown up around a supposedly historical figure, does not mean that figure did NOT exist.

Perhaps there was a King Arthur, and a Robin Hood. Of course the legends are nonsense, but the central figure just may have existed.

I actually do not think it is important at all one way or another, the point to get over to believers is, they have no evidence to back up their beliefs. They are simply emotionally attached to a fictional creation, they may just as well worship Harry Potter.

cofty

no serious Bible scholar doubts the historicity of a man named Jesus - Pistoff

This is factually incorrect.

Scholars don't come more serious or qualified than Carrier.

Doltologist

Phizzy

Perhaps there was a King Arthur, and a Robin Hood. Of course the legends are nonsense, but the central figure just may have existed.

... and just may not have. However, you do raise a good point in that the evidence for the existence of Robin Hood and King Arthur are flimsy, even at best and yet, their legends persist, even today - oh, just like jesus in fact.

Doltologist

Pistoff

The historical reference and the body of early followers are most consistent with their having been a real man named Jesus, likely a very charismatic, cynic sage who made the mistake of visiting Jerusalem.

You really do need to watch the Carrier vid if you believe this.

Ignorant Atheist Talk Show Host Destroyed by Agnostic Dr. Bart Erhman! Topic "Did Jesus and Paul exist?"

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