Ignorant Atheist Talk Show Host Destroyed by Agnostic Dr. Bart Erhman! Topic "Did Jesus and Paul exist?"

by MagicMItchJensen 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Doltologist
    Doltologist

    Magic

    The point that I'm making is that, once upon a time, we just accepted that god, jesus, etc. existed because religtards told us so.

    Life isn't like that any more (thank goodness).

    We now question - especially religtard dogma - and so we should. At least, non-jovies do anyhoo.

    There was a time when we just accepted Josephus and Tacitus and the babble.

    You state: "No rational scholar or anyone the historical community and consensus takes serious doubts "a religious man named Jesus Christ existed",

    I think that you'll find Carrier does and puts a coherent and logical argument for doing so.

    You also write: Dr. Erhman and Dr. Meier both accept the fact if you deny the historical evidence Jesus existed your going to have to wipe the slate clean of all historical figures existing since there's no evidence written by the scribes proving historical figures existed.

    Rubbish. Each historical figure has to be taken on their own merits. The fact is that a hell of a lot rests on the existence of jesus and, right now, his existence rests on some very flimsy evidence.

  • cofty
    cofty

    The most recent work on the historicity of Jesus was done by Richard Carrier.

    He makes a very compelling case that there was no Jesus of history.

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury
    I take it you dont like my comments magicmitch, is that because you are a fundie christian with an agenda and are (to use your own words) only "pretending to be open minded"?
  • Doltologist
    Doltologist

    Magic

    Forgot to mention - only 7 of paul's epistles are thought to be genuine. Now why do you suppose early christards forged them, huh?

    Oh, and Carrier has some interesting things to say about paul. You should listen to Carrier some time.

    Oh, I don't have anything against Dr Erhman. It's just that knowledge and theories move on.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    If the atheist is an infidel, how would your God label the agnostic who debates with him? Heretic, perhaps?

    Your post is kinda weird. You are turning to agnostics for help. What GOD needs endless, fruitless debates for support? Show up already, geeze....

    DD

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    Lets not forget the Pauline writing's most of them came before the gospels and the gospels were said to be written at least 100 years after Jesus death. Once you realize when and how the NT was composed you realize there's a big problem.

    I think Bart's opinion is yes there was a guy named Jesus but he was just a guy possible a Jewish leader teacher theologian but that's all. He mentions the writings of James and Jude that were supposedly his half brothers and in those writings Jesus is never mentioned as Gods son or that Jesus is god. He also references some gnostic writings that seam to indicate the same idea.

    Personally I think Jesus life story, travels etc. were modeled after Apollonius of Tirana.
  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once
    If they found evidence of Jesus at Iowa State I would be very doubtful. lol
  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    If you listen to what Prof. Ehrmann says, I think his points are to a great degree valid. So many people assume that what he is defending is their view of what the Historical Jesus is presented as.

    Bart is not saying the Jesus of the Gospel stories is an Historical fact, just that a figure that gave rise to the myths most certainly existed.

    I err on that side too, if no such figure at all existed, where on earth did the very early sects/cults that followed him come from, and why ?

    Who was Saul of Tarsus seeking out and persecuting ? a cult based on nothing at all ?

    All such arguments can never be resolved 100%, or anything close to that, even Bart's argument that Galatians is genuinely Pauline has a big hole in it, we have no extant early copies of the work, so the "throwaway" remarks he refers to may be interpolations by believers in much later times. The works of Paul are not immune to redaction.

    The important point to establish with blinkered believers is that they have zilch evidence for anything, all any of us can do is go with our gut feeling as to Historicity, but we need to be sensible about how we view obvious fraudulent works like the Gospels.

  • James Mixon
    James Mixon

    I believe there was A Paul, a man that saw a opportunity to start a

    religion. The miracle working Jesus, give me a break...There may have

    been a man name Jesus, but to walk on water, please...

  • MagicMItchJensen
    MagicMItchJensen

    WitnessMyFury, all anyone wants is a fair chance to discuss topics others get attacked on. We lose members here, members with educations because they get frustrated at the lack of fair speech. Think about what you’re saying, you say people bring in a “historical Jesus as a backdoor way of getting him raised from historical guru or teacher to God, god or powers of God”. The argument I present is people are not willing to change their opinions like those in the Watchtower Society, you know how often we drove people insane preaching in Field Service “we have the Truth” while never allowing anyone to ask us questions about our religious past because we knew this opened up Pandora’s Box.

    Can we have a discussion using the consensus of textual critics and historians to answer a question people have clearly made up their mind on? Do you believe a religious man who went by the name of Jesus of Nazareth existed because there are many who say the historical facts say he never existed? The goal is not to claim he had super natural powers, my desire is to expand on a topic of whether he was here or a made up myth, a myth his followers were willing to die for in the most exotic and excruciating way. Paul was no idiot, as he said in 1 Corinthians "If we are preaching a lie and Jesus did not raise from the dead, we are to be pitied wasting our lives and being executed over a terrible lie!"

    Someone recently wrote “The only reason Christians did not go extinct is because the Roman Empire sponsored their religion.” This question was not yours, it was someone who had no idea what they were talking about, if you read up on Galerius (Roman General who wanted to secure all the power throughout the Empire but failed miserably your view will change on whether Christians were sponsored.) And historical Armenia that blows out the water that Christians were allowed to thrive without Rome’s attempt as genocide. Why can’t we have dialogue like people on TV or videos do, not attacking people but asking questions and using facts and methods of ascertaining how the scholars come to their conclusions? I readily adjusted to micro-evolution because it’s a fact, there is no denying it yet some without brains still deny it. Let’s talk why people believe and don’t believe and why, thank you all for hearing me out!

    My objective was to point out how bad the Radio Host was to Dr. Erhman, when hosts are rude to well-educated guests they invite and make fallacious claims, it’s our job to reason through what’s going on!

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