why i do believe in 607

by perspicacia2 68 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Dear sweet Fridolin said:

    : How in the world you can teach from the bible when you don't accept it as being God's word?

    Why not? One can teach from Alice in Wonderland if one wants. The point is to see what the source says, whether the source is fact or fiction or a mixture of both, and draw conclusions. I don't have to believe in Alice to tell people what Mad Hatter is all about. Nor do I have to believe in the Bible to tell people what 2 Chronicles 36:20 or any other passage says, or to show why someone is misrepresenting or misinterpreting some passage.

    Being a JW, you don't care about facts or truth or even what the Bible says. You care about what Watchtower leaders say the Bible says, which makes you followers of men rather than followers of God. That's why you yourself can make no attempt to refute anything I have said in this thread -- your leaders have not told you what to say. Same goes for most other JWs.

    AlanF

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    AlanF,

    I hope you don't cry when I tell you this. But, I do care what the facts or truth what the Bible says. However, nobody don't know what the full meaning of God's word the bible. But it doesn't hurt us to look into it as a guide. No I don't carry a flashlight to find my way, I carry the Bible to find my way in this dark engineering world.

    Regarding following man, I follow one man and that is Jesus. And I follow one woman and that is Jessica Alba.

  • perspicacia2
    perspicacia2

    To TheContagion

    Hey! Do you have any problem ?!

    Why did you call me in another thread for the same matter?

    I've explained the reason of my late answer? I've finished yesterday to translate your message and now i've write the 30% of answer in Italian language!

    Are you able to read Italian Language? Do you want i post my answer now? Or do you prefer i finish it and translate it in English ?

    I do not live for this NewsGroup, boy! Give me the time please and consider also i've the problem of translation.

    Is there anyone in this forum that can help me with the translation? Maybe i could answer in Italian and somebody else could translate it in English!

    Frank

  • jws
    jws

    The prophet Jeremiah predicted that the Babylonians would destroy Jerusalem
    and make the city and land a desolation. (Jeremiah 25:8, 9) He added: "And
    all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and
    these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
    (Jeremiah 25:11) The 70 years expired when Cyrus the Great, in his first
    year, released the Jews and they returned to their homeland. (2 Chronicles
    36:17-23) We believe that the most direct reading of Jeremiah 25:11 and other
    texts is that the 70 years would date from when the Babylonians destroyed
    Jerusalem and left the land of Judah desolate.Jeremiah 52:12-15, 24-27;
    36:29-31.

    You seem to forget to quote Jeremiah 25:12 (NIV):

    Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chalde'ans, for their iniquity, says the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste.

    What do we learn from this? AFTER some 70 year period is completed, the king of Babylon will be punished. When was the king of Babylon killed? Even the WTBS says 539 BCE. So HOW can 70 years end in 537? How can the king of Babylon be punished 2 years after he is killed? It doesn't say the king of Babylon will be punished AND THEN 70 years will be completed. You've got to learn to read the whole text, not just the sections of it the WTBS quotes.

    The bible chronology agrees with history, not the WTBS interpretation. The Bible says that "these nations" will serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. Something that was going on LONG before Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of the city.

    When Nebuchadnezzar first came to power, it says he made Jehoiakim his vassal servant. Servant? As in, one who serves.

    2 Kings details several uprisings (how can you uprise unless you're in subjection to somebody?). In 2 Kings 25:17, Nebuchadnezzar puts Johoiachin's uncle on the throne and gives him a new name, a Babylonian name, Zedekiah. So, Babylon is having problems with Jerusalem. They take their king off the throne, put somebody else on and even throw out his name in favor of a new one. Doesn't this show subserviance?

    Eventually Zedekiah rebelled too, bringing on Nebuchadnezzar's final assault in his 18th year.

    Doesn't this make it obvious that Jerusalem served Babylon even though it had kings on its throne? You can't rebel unless you serve. The Jews were to serve Babylon for 70 years. Those 70 years started long before Zedekiah's defeat. They started before Zedekiah was even on the throne. And by the term "these nations", it doesn't only apply to Israel.

    If 70 years ends in 539, and if 70 years is literal, the starting point is 609 BC. That would change 1914 into 1912. But according to the WTBS, everything changed as-of 1914. So that doesn't work.

    Yet those who rely primarily on secular information for the chronology of
    that period realize that if Jerusalem were destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E.
    certainly it was not 70 years until Babylon was conquered and Cyrus let the
    Jews return to their homeland. In an attempt to harmonize matters, they claim
    that Jeremiahs prophecy began to be fulfilled in 605 B.C.E. Later writers
    quote Berossus as saying that after the battle of Carchemish Nebuchadnezzar
    extended Babylonian influence into all Syria-Palestine and, when returning to
    Babylon (in his accession year, 605 B.C.E.), he took Jewish captives into
    exile. Thus they figure the 70 years as a period of servitude to Babylon
    beginning in 605 B.C.E. That would mean that the 70-year period would expire
    in 535 B.C.E.

    Those who rely on secular information? Without it, even the WTBS wouldn't have any idea of these dates. They certainly stand by 539 and 537, which come from secular information.

    But the Bible itself provides even more telling evidence against the claim
    that the 70 years began in 605 B.C.E. and that Jerusalem was destroyed in
    587/6 B.C.E. As mentioned, if we were to count from 605 B.C.E., the 70 years
    would reach down to 535 B.C.E. However, the inspired Bible writer Ezra
    reported that the 70 years ran until "the first year of Cyrus the king of
    Persia," who issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to their homeland.
    (Ezra 1:1-4; 2 Chronicles 36:21-23) Historians accept that Cyrus conquered
    Babylon in October 539 B.C.E. and that Cyrus first regnal year began in the
    spring of 538 B.C.E. If Cyrus decree came late in his first regnal year, the
    Jews could easily be back in their homeland by the seventh month (Tishri) as
    Ezra 3:1 says; this would be October 537 B.C.E.

    This is simply not true. These accounts report the Jews being released to their homeland, but does not say that that was related to 70 years. 70 years ends, babylon falls, cyrus releases the jews, they return home. What does 70 years of serving Babylon have to do with Cyrus?

    Just read the Bible. Read 2 Kings. Read Jeremiah. It's all there. Just put it together. Secular history isn't needed to disprove the Watchtower. The Bible does a pretty good job all by itself.

    This whole writeup is only meant to try to cast doubt on historical sources, much like OJ Simpson's lawyers trying to raise questions in DNA evidence. The sources are as accurate as any other history. It's time to come to that realization and drop the formula.

    I have a question about this too. Russell originally said 70 years was from 606 to 536, forgetting about no 0 year. Don't you think it's odd that all this stuff got rearranged, but the end date is the thing that stayed the same?

    -jws

  • Lieu
    Lieu

    I say that no one really knows what YEAR these things happened. The Bible has no dates...it only states in the second year of such-and-such, and the like. It gives no dates because the dates aren't important. Why, as we can all attest, because some crackpots would spend an entire lifetime trying to figure out when the big A was supposed to happen....a date, time, and year that is NONE of anyone's stinking business!

    Mankind has had various dating systems through the stream of time...all which have changed dramatically. This is why I ask how do we really know what year it is?

    WHICH calender (dating system) should we use and does it include leap-years? Are we supposed to factor leap-years into the 70 yr period? Yes? No?

    Note on dates: Virtually all precise dates for early Rome are antiquarian reconstructions. The conventional (Varronian) dates for Roman events before the late 4th century are high by four years due to the insertion of the fabricated dictator-years333, 324, 309, and 301. In what follows, the conventional dates will appear in square brackets.]

    Late in the fourth century the modern calender system was "made up". Yeah, this all makes since considering we're presumptuous enough to count time based on when everyone "suppposes" Christ was born. Sure, okay.

  • ItsJustlittleoldme
    ItsJustlittleoldme

    Hi Pers,

    If the bible has no dates, it's pretty interesting that the WT seems to know some dates, doesn't it? Historians come up with dates via history (Which may or may not be correct), and the WT rejects such history (uless of course they happen to agree with it, then it's proof that they are correct).. Regardless, NO OTHER group of people that I am aware of in the entire world have concluded that ANY date is what gives them 'power' to rule with Christ. None excpet the JW's with their 1914 doctrine. And they came up with this date from what, bible cronology, which has no dates in it.

    The bible has no dates, yet the WT has dates. The WT does NOT use secular history to do anything, it's only based on the bible, correct? So, how did they come up with a date? Was it divine inspiration, was it that they did use secular history (in part), or is it that someone decided that 1914 looked like a good year to claim Jesus' invisible return?

    Fred:

    However, nobody don't know what the full meaning of God's word the bible. But it doesn't hurt us to look into it as a guide.

    Nobody knows what the full meaning of God's word is, yet you decide to act upon that word as interpreted by the F&DS. You are putting yourslef in the position of a rightious man without even yourself believing that you are righchous. I wonder how Jehovah is gonna view that when he judges you?

    For all you know, in a few years the F&DS may change the blood doctrine (like they did the organ transplant doctrine) and state that it is ok to have blood, yet you followed this doctrine for all these years in error. One would have to wonder if you would also be blood guilty as the WT would be in that instance.. Since you admitted above that noone knows what the full meaning of God's word is yet, you admit that you don't have absolute truth yet. Without absolute truth, however, you are willing to support a doctrine which may be in error that is responsible for people losing their lives.. Without absolute truth, you are willing to judge everyone that is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses (no matter how nice, fine, upstanding they may be) as being part of Satan's world, and 'avoid' them. That's alot of passing judgement that you do for someone that acknoledges that he doesn't have the absolute truth on anything. Glad I'm not in your shoes, because I would be fearful of Jehovah..

    P.S. Sorry for the yellow highlight.. I cannot seem to turn it off...

    Edited by - ItsJustlittleoldme on 23 June 2002 11:59:50

    Edited by - ItsJustlittleoldme on 23 June 2002 12:2:35

    Edited by - ItsJustlittleoldme on 23 June 2002 12:3:1

  • ItsJustlittleoldme
    ItsJustlittleoldme

    Hey,

    Is there a reply that Pers made in this thread missing? If you look at the beginning of the thread, a few people (myself included) have quoted part of a reply that Pers made in some of our replies, but when you look for the actual message that contains his quote, it is missing..??

    Pers, did you delete one of your replies? If so, why?

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Freddie Hall says:

    : However, nobody don't know what the full meaning of God's word the bible. But it doesn't hurt us to look into it as a guide.

    So, what you're saying is, "it's best to use stuff no one's been able to understand for two thousand five hundred years to help guide your way and also base all major decisions in your life upon something you don't understand, either."

    Guy goes into the Department of Motor Vehicles:

    Guy: "I'd like to learn how to pass my Driver's test."

    DMV Clerk: "Can you read Swahili?"

    Guy: "Why, no I can't."

    DMV Clerk: "Good. Here is the study manaul in Swahili. If you don't pass the test, we kill you. Good luck."

    Guy: "Gee, thanks..... I guess."

    Make perfect sense to me!

    Farkel

    Edited by - Farkel on 23 June 2002 17:12:44

  • ItsJustlittleoldme
    ItsJustlittleoldme

    Hey Fred,

    However, nobody don't know what the full meaning of God's word the bible.

    I just noticed that this is a double-negative sentence without an ending.

    Nobody don't would mean that somebody does

    know what the full meaning of God's word the bible _______ (Is?)(Says?)

    Are you trying to play spiritual warfare on us, and try to say something yet mean another, or did you just forget how to create gramatically correct sentences?

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    Some of you can bite this cat tail.

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