Damned if they do, Damned if they don't

by FusionTheism 88 Replies latest jw friends

  • jwfacts

    There is nothing Watchtower can change to justify the countless lives it has destroyed over the last 100 years. Even a positive change will not be able to redeem the religion and make it an organisation worthy of anyone belonging to. For instance, whilst it would be ideal if they removed the practice of shunning, they still:

    • teach harmful unrealistic doomsday doctrine
    • rob followers of their time and money
    • lead to death refusing blood transfusions
    • are against higher education and encourage ignorance through restricted research

    If they changed all the bad, they would not be the same religion. There is no point congratulating small changes as a step in the right direction, as this is the sort of distraction used to justify the wrong and pretend things are improving when in reality they are not.

    The concentration needs to be that it is a harmful religion that is beyond repair, and its followers are victims that need assistance to leave.

  • Finkelstein

    Where is the "friendly and tolerant ?

    Well your here posting your personal support for the JWS and you haven't been booted off like if your were on a JWS forum. If someone goes there and starts spouting off non-support or contravening statements on the WTS/JWS doctrines, you will find yourself quickly booted off by the moderators.

    Having a hot debate is allowed here pro or against as long as its kept respectful.

  • Finkelstein

    jwfacts clarifies the situation, well said

  • Tenacious
    And when they recently have admitted to errors and say they've been wrong in big ways in the past, some accuse them of having some secret conspiracy theory motive behind it.

    And when have they ever offered a sincere apology for having been wrong? When? I'd like to know.

  • Island Man
    Island Man
    "If you condemn the Society for NOT changing, but then you also condemn them when they DO change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the Society to ever want to change for the better?"

    1 The Society's biggest problem is its lack of genuine humility - the very arrogant, grandiose claims it makes about itself without tangible supporting evidence and despite a litany of evidence to the contrary. Those who lift themselves on a pedestal, making extraordinary claims about themselves are inviting scrutiny and should be man enough to accept it instead of seeking to demonize and censor those who give it through the use of manipulative propaganda and shunning. To whom much is given much is expected in return. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and invite extraordinary scrutiny.

    2 If The Society would just humbly come clean and apologize honestly and directly for all its wrongs and cease its attitude of arrogance and manipulation based on its bogus claims of divine authority - self-appointed authority - and allow JWs the freedom of conscience to hold different opinions from the Society on matters not clearly stated in scripture, then people would tend to be more forgiving of the society. The great scrutiny will also die down since they'll no longer be making arrogant unsubstantiated claims of special divine appointment.

    3 it is an ongoing insult and torment to ex-JWs to see The Society changing past teachings over which some were disfellowshipped for disagreeing with, and no apology is given to them and their status as disfellowshipped is not reversed. It is an insult to see an organization behaving as if it is infallible and practically demanding that it be treated as infallible while teaching utter nonsense and demonizing those who disagree.

    4 The changes that Watchtower makes are often not born out of genuine love for truth but out of mere organizational expediency. Many JWs have written to the Society logically and scripturally demonstrating the falsehood of their teachings and yet they continue for years and decades with the false teachings - because the truth would not serve their interests at that time. Do you think Watchower is unaware that 607 BCE is false? They know it's false! Carl Johnson wrote a book logically showing its false and sent them a copy. They are aware that its false but its not in their organizational interest to change it. Only when a teaching reaches the point of being untenable does the society actually move to change it. They are not lovers of truth. They are lovers of the organization and the power it gives them.

    5 So we criticize them when they don't change because the lack of change is due to their loyalty to the interest of the organization rather than their loyalty to the truth. And we criticize them when they do change because the changes are also prompted by loyalty the interest of the organization rather than loyalty to the truth. Also the changes prove that they don't deserve the treatment as a special, unchallengable, spirit directed authority on truth that they seek to manipulate JWs into giving them.

    "Also, what does that attitude look like to current Witnesses who are having doubts?
    It probably looks to them like the Society has been correct in the way they describe apostates as bitter complainers who are never happy with anything the Society does."

    6 Yes, many apostates are bitter complainers - justifiably so! The society is essentially taking a symptom of discovering that you've been deceived and manipulated (becoming bitter) and attaching to it the connotation of being irrelevant/dishonest then using this connotation to groom JWs into dismissing apostates without examining the substantive point they're making. Watchtower is using the propaganda technique of name calling and the logical fallacy of ad hominem. It is analogous to a pedophile grooming his would-be victim by telling him/her that society is cruel and does not understand him (the pedophile) and hates him and wants to see him locked up just because he likes little children and wants to give them love; and for this reason he tells his would-be victim not to tell other adults about their conversations and conduct in private.

    For example:
    * "The Society finds crazy Types and Antitypes in everything, where it doesn't exist. Way too many deep layers of nonsense being taught."
    * (After the New Light): "The Society is way too simplistic and dumbed down. What happened to the deep study?"

    7 Nonsense! Yes the types and antitypes are indeed nonsensical and have been criticized as such by ex-JWs. But the comments about the society being dumbed down has nothing to do with that. The criticism of the new light abandonment of types and anti-types has nothing to do with simplicity and everything to do with hypocrisy. They claim to be abandoning the type anti-type approach while continuing in it for their 1914 teaching.

    And when they recently have admitted to errors and say they've been wrong in big ways in the past, some accuse them of having some secret conspiracy theory motive behind it.

    8 What conspiracy theory motive? What are you talking about? And they have never unreservedly apologized for the ills caused by their past errors. As for admitting their past errors: haven't you noticed how when they speak of them they avoid using direct words like "false", "error", "wrong", etc in preference for far more diplomatic and euphemistic words and language? It's a hallmark of their lack of true humility. Even when purporting to admit they were wrong they are unwilling to actually say that they were wrong!

    To the people with this attitude: What exactly is it that you WANT the Society to do?

    See 2 above.


    Heck, look what the Home Page of this website claims, and then look at the comments in this one thread!

    "We are not affiliated with the WTB&TS in anyway and we take your privacy and security veryseriously doing our utmost to protect your identity and provide a friendly, tolerant and informative environment"

    Doesn't exactly line up.

    Where is the "friendly and tolerant?".....FusionTheism

    You forgot informative..

    You were informed,we`re aware your peddling Bull Shit..

    It was said in the nicest way possible..


    ..........Image result for Thats one big pile of shit


    You never addressed the WBT$ "Asking for Children`s Ice Cream Money"..

    That`s an incredibly disgusting thing to do..

    You seem good with it.....Tolerant..

  • FayeDunaway

    Ok personally I think the types/ anti types change IS a good thing.

    Of course they didn't apologize. No even indirectly. And of course this is what 'christendom' has been teaching for thousands! of years, and witnesses make a big deal of it, pat themselves on the back, Oh we are SO wise!!!

    While they blamed people in the past for being like babes, not understanding the 'deeper things' they had made up, which was actually PURE BS.

    So yes, the change is good, but it is really hypocritical.

  • Finkelstein

    I think the site is very tolerant to stupidity and ignorance.

  • FusionTheism


    Do you apply the same reasoning and logic to the government or to your friends or relatives?

    How is that any different from the way the Society has viewed apostates in the past, a viewpoint which most on here usually condemn?

  • zeb

    The wts claims add nauseum to be the one channel from God.

    So why are there so many 'corrections' to be made.? There errors are result of years of mental inbreeding and the isolating of themselves away in their monastery ever fearful of everything without its walls. Their lives are hypocrisy. they are waited on, fed, and feted. They do not have children, they deny those who would. They don't have to face the day to day realities that the rest of human kind do. of work or no work, of pestilential neighbours, of facing the traffic and driving miles to meetings that endlessly say the same thing over and over again.

    Most recently with he advent of the web,

    • they have been found wanting in their rabid defence of paedophiles
    • they have gone all out in wanting evr more money from the r& f and particularly odious is this system of lending out at interest monies donated to the wt for kh construction work and the removal of any "excess" balance in individual cong accounts.
    • remain steadfastly opposed to education above an elemental level

    such things are not of some company producing goods that has to modify its way as it goes. These are proofs that the wts has proven false to its charter because it cannot claim to have the holy spirit directing its efforts.

    • All the long years ago I was baptised in the name of the father the son and holy spirit. Thus has disabused this ancient and filling guide and have relatively recently dumped the son and taken his place. thus they are corporate blasphemers as well.


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