Damned if they do, Damned if they don't

by FusionTheism 88 Replies latest jw friends

  • blondie

    My jw relatives often discussed current teachings and how they did not line up with easy bible understanding. They didn't spread their ideas so stayed out of trouble. But they patted themselves on the back when the "adjustment" would come through.

    I have seen it asked what if a person at the KH saw the flaws and shared them with others and then was DF'd? When the adjustment w as made and it was clear that person was right, would they be reinstated or have their DF cancelled.

  • steve2

    Fusion Theism - many thanks for responding. It was audacious of me to suggest you were not considering all responses. I can even see where you are coming from.

    It is a real shame that absolutely no improvements in the shunning policy or in responding better to questions are evident. Any improvements in that regard would certainly catch my attention!

    As regards, the "improvements" in the blood policy - for some that has come far too late - they're dead.

    What ever you think of the tolerance or lack of it on this forum, you can will already know that such tolerance is virtually absent from your local kingdom hall.

    That said, even though many here vigorously disagree with your observations, you at least have a platform for expressing your views. You would never be accorded that by the Witnesses themselves.

  • 3rdgen

    FT asks, "What exactly is it that you WANT the Society to do?"

    A fair enough question for a true believer (assuming he can reconcile being disobedient to the GB by being on this site)

    First I want them to explain why the Holy Spirit (that according to them issues forth from Jehovah himself and has been directing the organization since the outset) has been either unwilling or unable to "get it right".

    For instance, Types/antitypes. Why would the Holy Spirit direct the WBTS to state as fact their various interpretations both orally and in print to be studied and re studied, then reveal to them that those same interpretations were wrong and pretty much ditch the whole concept?

    JW's teach that the Holy Spirit is NOT part of a Trinity or a personage but issues forth from Jehovah and to a lesser extent, Jesus and sometimes the angels. How could Holy Spirit issuing out of perfect Spirits be wrong? Repeatedly? Who or what Spirit (according to Bible and Watctower) is the father of the lie? What kind of spirit would intentionally Make Jehovah's Witnesses and by extension Jehovah look foolish by being wrong over and over again?

    The other thing I want them to do is: Leave me alone.

  • FayeDunaway

    Ft, I agree with most of your points above. It seems you are becoming happier the more they become like mainstream Christianity. So why not just take the plunge and join another church? Unless you have family in. In which case, i understand, and sympathize, with the exasperation of waiting for change...which feels like being famished and waiting for crumbs to fall from a table.

    But these changes are still hypocritical, and they make them without acknowledging all the people they have hurt meanwhile, since their past interpretation of scripture was WRONG, and HURTFUL, LEGALISTIC--going far beyond the spirit of the law, and even CAUSED DEATH. In fact they are still causing death by not changing enough, but they are too proud to say 'we were wrong about blood in medicine.' So they have to skirt the issue, still making it difficult to survive loss of blood, especially if you happen to live in a third world country with less medical options available to you.

  • Oubliette


    no I'm not going to spend my entire off day to provide you the exact page numbers of each change

    Not one of the points you made in your previous post is an accurate description of any of the "changes" made by the WT leadership. I asked you for two specific things and you "responded" with a dozen different things and failed to give both the exact quotations and a reference.

    Typical evasive bullshit. You're just like the GB. You give what appears to be an answer, but really isn't.

    BTW, if you ever find yourself in a Judicial Committee, I suggest you try demonstrating your "repentance" using the language the WTBTS uses when it "admits its mistakes." See how that works for you.

  • Bonsai

    My loved ones are still being shunned for petty offenses.

    I still had to refuse to sign medical papers giving hospitals the right to perform a blood transfusion in the event that it was needed . All while my wife was in labor. We were pressured , we were coerced, under threat of being disassociated not to sign those papers. The liason committee were watching us like a hawk .As a result, we were rejected by one hospital after another. I remember the doctor shouting at me that my wife's uterus could rupture at any moment if she didn't get immediate medical attention. Yet, due to utter brainwashing, I was prepared and willing to let them die. My wife and child could have died because of a stupid, fundamental view of "abstain from blood".

    The GB are still untouchable and inaccessible.

    There still is zero financial transparency.

    They still teach 1914 and 1919. Lett said there is more proof that Jesus presence has begun in1914 than say, electricity, wind or gravity. (Paraphrasing)

    The supposed changes that you list are like pealing the outer skin off of an onion and saying its no longer an onion. It still stinks like an onion, tastes like an onion, and makes your eyes water (with sadness and disappointment) like an onion.

    The GB have put a teddy bear band-aid over a gunshot wound to cover it up. Nothing has changed...

  • DarioKehl


    hey, good afternoon. I have an honest & sincere question for you:

    i noticed you refer to some of the teachings that they've abandoned as "wacky." About 8 years ago, I was struggling with some of the "wackiness" as well as we were covering the Revelation book for book study. 8 years ago, 2007, I was home alone and I lurked on this forum as well as a few "apostate" YouTube channels in an effort to see if I could defend the wackiness. Several really good points were made that justified my doubts, but, I noticed a few posts & comments that confirmed my bias about exJWs. For example, lots of anger, snark, profanity, etc. it really made me uncomfortable & I ran back to my "spiritual life" in an attempt to wash all the muck away.

    ...BUT... even as offended as I was, the few good points that I'd read stayed with me. My last ditch effort to cling to god's chariot was pitiful. I could not suppress or ignore the facts I'd discovered--even if the delivery was unsavory for my pure JW eyes. The point is, SOMETHING brought me here that very first time. Although initially turned off, I came back here even after sincere efforts to boost my involvement in the organization.

    SOMETHING brought YOU here too. My question to you is, WHAT? Why are you breaking a rule that could put you into a judicial committee by not only viewing this forum but also joining & posting? I get it that when you read some members' choice of language & tone that it can be a culture shock, but realize that some of us are irreparably hurt. Some of us have been out for decades & simply talk like regular folks do now. I highly suggest you focus on the "WHAT" that brought you here in the first place and just ignore the posts that make you uncomfortable.

    if you're here for a reason, if you believe some things are "wacky," focus on THAT, not us. Otherwise, you may over-correct like I did and suffer very unpleasant symptoms of cognitive dissonance by ignoring the underlying issue that's bothering you about the organization. My rebound cost an extra 2 years of unnecessary guilt, fear and lying to myself and everyone else.

    you may just need a break. Get off this forum, don't watch YouTube videos and ALSO don't read any WT material either; take a break from all of it and research specific topics at your local library. See what scholars, scientists, historians and archeologists have to say & forget all this drama for awhile. If you have the truth, it WILL endure scrutiny. Go out and confirm that for yourself away from exJW AND current JW bias.

    im still a JW, btw (for many reasons), so I can empathize with your viewpoint. But for real, take a break from BOTH sides and research your issues yourself. I promise it will improve your situation.

    keep us posted on your progress too. Most of us really do care, even if we don't agree. We all want the same thing: truth. So go out there & get it! Good luck :)

  • opusdei1972

    These three statements of Fusion Theism shows his blindness:

    * A gradual removal of the 1914, 1919 teachings.

    * A gradual improvement of their shunning practices, especially with their New Convention and Return to Jehovah Brochure.

    * A gradual improvement of their blood policies, including the approval of hemoglobin and many other fractions.

    But let me quote some recent Watchtower phrases so as to show how wrong Fusion Theism is:

    About 1914:

    3 About 20 years before 1900, God’s servants began to understand a prophecy that was written by Daniel over 2,500 years ago: “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.” (Daniel 2:44) For more than 20 years, the Bible Students preached that 1914 would be a very important year. Many people at that time were very optimistic about the future. One writer says: “The world of 1914 was full of hope and promise.” However, later that year, World War I began, and Bible prophecy came true. The food shortages, earthquakes, diseases, and other Bible prophecies that were fulfilled proved that Jesus Christ began ruling in heaven as King of God’s Kingdom in 1914.* (See footnote.) By enthroning his Son as the Messianic King, Jehovah had become King in a new way. (ws14 1/15 pp. 8-13, paragraph 3)

    About 1919:

    6 What is the larger fulfillment of Malachi’s prophecy? For many years before 1914, C. T. Russell and the brothers working with him did a work like that of John the Baptizer. They studied the Bible to discover what it really teaches. For example, they taught the true meaning of Christ’s ransom sacrifice, showed that hellfire did not exist, and declared when the Gentile Times would end. There were many other religious groups who claimed to be Christ’s followers. But who among these groups were the wheat? To answer that question, Jesus began to inspect the spiritual temple in 1914. Jesus’ work to inspect and cleanse that temple lasted from 1914 to the early part of 1919.*—See endnote.


    7. What did Jesus find when he began his inspection in 1914?

    7 When Jesus began his inspection, what did he find? A small group of zealous Bible Students who had been using their strength and their money to spread the good news for more than 30 years.* (See endnote.) Jesus and the angels must have been very happy to see that the few who were part of the wheat class had remained strong and had not been choked by the weeds. But the “sons of Levi,” that is, the anointed, needed to be cleansed. (Malachi 3:2, 3; 1 Peter 4:17) Why? (ws13 7/15 pp. 9-14)

    About Shunning:

    All in the congregation can show principled love by avoiding contact and conversation with the disfellowshipped person. (w15 4/15 pp. 29-31)

    About the Blood ban:

    14 Are you now in a better position to understand why Jehovah commands us not to eat “any sort of blood”? (Lev. 17:10) Do you grasp the reason why God considers blood to be sacred? He essentially views blood as equivalent to life. (Gen. 9:4) Do you agree that we should accept God’s view of blood and obey his command to abstain from it? The only way any of us can have peace with God is to have faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice and appreciate that blood has special meaning to our Creator.Col. 1:19, 20.

    15 Any one of us could suddenly find ourselves facing the blood issue. Or a family member or dear friend could unexpectedly be confronted with the issue of whether to accept a blood transfusion or not. During such a crisis, decisions also need to be made regarding blood fractions and medical procedures. Therefore, it is very important to do research and prepare for a possible emergency. Along with prayer, such measures will help us to take a firm stand and avoid compromising on the matter. Surely we do not want to sadden Jehovah’s heart by accepting something that his Word condemns! Many medical professionals and other advocates of blood transfusion appeal to people to donate blood in hopes of saving lives. However, Jehovah’s holy people acknowledge that the Creator has the right to say how blood is to be treated. To him, “any sort of blood” is sacred. We must be determined to obey his law on blood. By our holy conduct, we prove to him that we deeply appreciate the lifesaving power of Jesus’ blood—the only blood that makes possible the forgiveness of sin and everlasting life.John 3:16. (w14 15/11 págs. 8-12)

    So, these quotes show how Watchtower lies and its stupid and harmful policies are still in force.

  • opusdei1972

    Fusion Theism: I have a question for this statement given by you:

    * A gradual improvement of their blood policies, including the approval of hemoglobin and many other fractions.

    Do you know that when you have a meaningful loss of blood, you urgently need a blood transfusion, and there is no other way to face this problem?? ...however, let's quote how an article in JW.ORG deceives the Witnesses:



    For decades, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been criticized because of their refusal to accept blood transfusions. That refusal, based on the Biblical directive to ‘abstain from blood,’ has at times clashed with what doctors thought to be in the best medical interests of their patients.Acts 15:29.

    Increasingly, however, experienced voices within the medical community have been pointing to medical reasons for using clinical strategies that avoid blood transfusion.

    The Spring 2013 issue of the journal Stanford Medicine Magazine, a publication of the Stanford University School of Medicine, contained a special report on blood, part of which was entitled “Against the Flow—What’s Behind the Decline in Blood Transfusions?” The author of that article, Sarah C. P. Williams, states: “Over the past decade, a growing body of research has revealed that in hospitals around the world, donated blood is used more often, and in larger quantities, than is needed to help patients—both in operating rooms and hospital wards.”

    The author quotes Patricia Ford, M.D., founder and director of The Center for Bloodless Medicine and Surgery at Pennsylvania Hospital. Dr. Ford said: “There’s this idea ingrained in the culture of medicine that people will die if they don’t have a certain level of blood, that blood is the ultimate lifesaver . . . That’s true in some specific situations, * but for most patients in most situations it’s just not true.”

    Dr. Ford, who treats about 700 of Jehovah’s Witnesses each year, also said: “Many physicians I talked to . . . had this misperception that a lot of patients just can’t survive without receiving blood . . . I may have even thought that myself to some degree. But what I rapidly learned was you can care for these patients by just applying some easy strategies.”


    So, as you read, the Watchtower has partially quoted the article “Against the Flow—What’s Behind the Decline in Blood Transfusions?” , which apparently says that some physicians have a misperception that "patients just can't survive without receiving blood". However, The Watchtower omitted to quote meaningful statements of that article:


    In some emergency situations, though, patients will always need blood transfusions. Despite years of research, no safe substitutes for real human blood have been developed that can help patients in cases of blood loss......And for many trauma patients, and others who need a transfusion in an emergency, it’s still true that blood is a lifesaver. The more than 50,000 blood donations through Stanford Blood Center each year are key to saving many lives.


    Note that "in cases of blood loss.....blood is a lifesaver", but most of the witnesses who died for the blood ban were in that case. So, the Watchtower intentionally misses the main point.
  • Oubliette

    opusdei1972, thank you for showing clear evidence from the WTBTS's own literature that FT is completely wrong.

    I'm sure it did not take you a great deal of time or effort to find these quotes.

    I would ask that you consider this next time you are tempted to "refute" a JW apologist on this forum: When they make ridiculous claims, demand that they prove those claims.

    Twice I asked FT to back up his assertions. He completely ignored my first request for proof. His response to my second request was, "no I'm not going to spend my entire off day to provide you the exact page numbers of each change."

    He didn't provide quotes because he couldn't. Lurkers and fence-sitters need to see this.

    You're quotations completely refuting his nonsense securely put the last nails in the coffin regarding his ridiculous claims.

    You cannot defend the indefensible.

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