Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax 77 Replies latest jw friends

  • Ajax
    Ajax

    Skeeter Hello -

    I´m familiar (a little) with the Bear and Wollersheim cases regarding people who either wanted to remain with their cults or needed help (which he got) in stopping the cult from destroying him.

    Giordanos included letter has some well worded warnings regarding legal mistakes the elders are more than likely to commit - confidentiality, privacy and the keeping and retaining of personal files. If you were a local janitor\ glorious one I imagine it was easier to accomodate these demands rather than look like a fool defending against doing what is rightand proper.

    That person also made issue of membership and who determines it- and being baptised by non cong. members - any thoughts on those fronts?

    But alas the whole issue of that letter is the reversal of what faders need to accomplish - this poor soul wishes to resolutely remain a JW, but on his or her own terms. Faders need to maintain their good name intact and forstall any public announcements containing their name.

  • freddo
    freddo

    My advice - do not rely on any outside agency to fight the WT for you. If you want to go without being df'd then leave quietly and do not incriminate yourself by opening your mouth beyond saying you have decided not to discuss anything with anyone.

    Of course if you want to go out with a bang then shout from the rooftops and write to everyone you have an address for. But if you do ... you willbe shunned.

  • Ajax
    Ajax

    TD -

    Leaving quietly while in good standing and allowing the passage of time, forces them to act retroactively to bring hateful retribution upon someone who has only exercised a legal and humanitarian right.

    Anthony Morris lied that JWs are free to leave.

    He and his predecessors orchestrated the whole charade of reading names from platform as the sole que that incites others to discriminate for reasons unknown.

    Disfellowshipping is ecclesiastic discipline for infractions of ecclesiastic law, it is mutually consentual, and certainly not necessarily just or reasonable (female genital mutilation, circumcision bronze age rituals) but still consentual - the parties agree to and participate in the stupidity.

    Consciously leaving a religion is rarely a consentual act, but a private, individual decision often necessary for mental health reasons. This decision requires no ecclesiastic approval nor consent because your right to make this most private and individual choice is enshrined in most modern human rights charters.

    It is the existance of these rights that have changed the face of modern social norms, color, creed, sexuality, origin, employment equity, housing etc have all been challenged and still being reformed to better human freedoms.

    JW are most assuredly not free to leave their cult without WTs standard of hatred to burden their way to freedom.

    I believe that challenges to this very specific issue - Freedom of Religion - shoved right in the faces of the local elders and extracting damages from the congregations surpluses normally sent off to New York will strike a nerve , while showing what hypocrites the localcongregations really are.

    What are they going to do- ..fight against religious freedoms? ...demonstrate beyond a doubt that ostracism and shame are appropriate rewards for someone attempting to improve their own life and mental health? ...

    This challenge afforded by this simple local approach can only leave a written legal record showing Anthony Morris III to be completely full of shit.

  • TD
    TD

    Ajax,

    Although I'm married to a JW, I'm not one myself, so plrease forgive me if I'm missing something.

    Leaving quietly while in good standing and allowing the passage of time, forces them to act retroactively to bring hateful retribution upon someone who has only exercised a legal and humanitarian right.

    "Going through the motions" as an adult (i.e. Attending meetings, singing hymns, participating in evangelistic activities, carrying out assignments, etc.) constitutes recognition of and submission to ecclesiastical authority, which is something JW attorneys have pointed out to persons who were baptized as minors and later regretted that decision. It doesn't matter if one was baptized as a minor if they continued to act as a JW once they reach the age of majority. So I'm not sure that I see the value in privately denying that you are a JW while simultaneously publicly acknowledging that you indeed are one. Which of the two actions carries more force?

    JW are most assuredly not free to leave their cult without WTs standard of hatred to burden their way to freedom.

    From an ethical standpoint I'm in perfect agreement with this. It makes me quite angry. It makes me so angry that I'm one of the few here (Apparently) who's actually paid cold hard cash to an attorney for expert advice. In the United States, unfortunately, there's not much one can do about it. The only weakness at all in the JW's legal stance is what I've already explained.

  • Chaserious
    Chaserious

    Extracting damages from the congregations surpluses

    I realize that you believe you've come up with quite a clever loophole to the legality of DF'ing, but here is a question. Let's say someone does as you recommend, and writes a letter of withdrawal, secretly hiding it away. Then let's say sometime later, the local elders decide to DF the person, making the standard "no longer a JW" announcement.

    How exactly do you think you are going to "extract damages?" What is the exact legal theory/ cause of action that you think would be successful? Just to run off a few that seem closest, Intentional infliction of emotional distress, slander, defamation, invasion of privacy, etc. The problem is none of them would be viable. Or is there one that I missed?

  • oppostate
    oppostate

    You should write the congregation' BOE and tell them you do not wish to continue as a member of that specific congregation.

    In the same letter you should threaten to take legal action against the elders if they say anything to mar your reputation with your former congregation associates.

    You should make it clear that if you wish to join another congregation you will do so without needing to tell them.

    If they say anything or write anything against you, as in a letter to another BOE, you will take legal action against them.

    This will prevent their announcing anything about your not being a JW anymore, all you've done is leave that congregation and that's not a DF'ing offense.

    For the BOE to take any action against you would be opening themselves to a lawsuit since you've already informed them that you are no longer a member of that congregation.

    There are legal precedents that support a person leaving a congregation and suing a former congregation due to retaliation on their part for one's leaving.

  • Chaserious
    Chaserious

    You should write the congregation' BOE and tell them you do not wish to continue as a member of that specific congregation.

    In the same letter you should threaten to take legal action against the elders if they say anything to mar your reputation with your former congregation associates.

    If you do this and they decide to DF you anyway and announce it, I highly doubt you would be successful in a lawsuit, and I am unaware of anyone who has been. Some bodies of elders, anecdotally, have decided not to make an announcement out of fear of personal liability and legal costs, but the chances of an actual successful lawsuit are slim to none.

    The simplicity of their announcements is legally airtight. They have the right to discipline members by expelling them, and if you choose not to be a member they can't discipline you further, but merely accurately announce you are no longer a member. The distinction you are trying to make between withdrawing from the local cong vs. withdrawing from the religion is not going to do anything meaningful.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    Ajax - "This challenge afforded by this simple local approach can only leave a written legal record showing Anthony Morris III to be completely full of shit."

    Definately not the worst outcome one could wish for.

  • Blackfalcon98
    Blackfalcon98

    marked

  • talesin
    talesin

    If you do this and they decide to DF you anyway and announce it, I highly doubt you would be successful in a lawsuit, and I am unaware of anyone who has been. Some bodies of elders, anecdotally, have decided not to make an announcement out of fear of personal liability and legal costs, but the chances of an actual successful lawsuit are slim to none.


    Actually, they did that to one of our members, Kwintestal. He hired a lawyer, had a letter drafted saying that they needed to show what grounds he was DF'd for (there were none), or REVERSE their decision.

    [ EDIT: Now, I would have to ask, but I don't believe he wrote a disassociation letter ....... you may find it here, if you look at his threads. ]

    The DF was reversed. And he is someone I know in person, and well - I watched it unfold. But this is Canada, and there was no lawsuit. ;)

    I know, that was amazing! But ,,, all BOE's may not respond that way.

    tal

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