Officer Wilson not indicted in killing of Michael Brown

by Simon 551 Replies latest social current

• 

  Pacopoolio

  Are these based on views of white or people of all races? Are there studies on the views of black people toward whites and toward law enforcement? We hear a lot of accusations of racism so it would apear that both sides judge the other unfairly.

  I'm sure many people's views toward blacks and crime is based on the media representations (e.g. current images of looting and rioting) together with crime statistics that show that criminality among blacks is higher (violent crime).

  Is it fair or not for people to have views and opinions that match the actual facts? It sounds like you think people should "not think blacks are more likely to commit violent crime even though they are". The only way to stop people believing things that are true is to change the reality - lower rates of crime. Do we really think that people turn to violent crime because strangers may be hesitant to approach them in the street?

  Yes, people should be judged as individuals but when you are strangers you don't have that luxury and so skin color, clothing, behavior, speech etc... are all factors that we reach snap conclusions on.

  What are you asking in your first statement? The point is not "demonizing whites"; black on black racism only WORSENS the issues. The problem is an endemic social one.
  
  Looking further into the statistics shows that a) black crime directly follows the scale of poverty/class with crime (ie. black people are disproportionately living in poverty, so they can be disproportionately skewed in criminal representation), and b) the statistics are also skewed by ARRESTS and CONVICTIONS, of which black people hugely receive more of, with the same crimes and even lesser criminal references as others. I cited multiple sources which reference those stats directly.
  
  I've studied people's psychology for years; I agree with you that people are very weak to self selection bias, snap social judgments, etc., all for probably obvious evolutionary issues.
  
  The response is not "it's white people's fault," it's that situations like this are directly a result of the social situations that exist based on the United States' history. If you take any large group of people, given them a snap visual identifier, and similar history, things like this will happen. Blaming people as a whole for what people will obviously do doesn't accomplish anything. However, blaming the media for things like disproportionate representation (see links) DOES do something, as it actually helps to change public opinion, which helps mitigate these problems over time.
  
  The only real contention I have with this thread is when people say things like "what happened two or even five generations ago shouldn't matter with a current individual" as that directly goes against everything learned in two entire branches of science.
• 

  Pacopoolio

  Pacopoolio,

  I selected the first peer reviewed paper you offered to see if it supports your assertion that "black children under 10 are less likely to be viewed as children and less innocent as compared to white children"

  Your source DOES NOT support your assertion.

  For example, your cited source (above) offers evidence that children under 10 are seen as EQUALLY INNOCENT regardless of race!!!

  Get your facts straight, and for goodness sakes READ your own cited sources before you have others spend time reading them for something they never say and, in fact, DISPUTE!!!

  I obviously typed "under" as opposed to "over" by accident. Whoops.
  
  You're going to ignore the entire quoted information that directly supports part of my assertion because of a mistype? Are you trying to share ideas and have a discussion, or do "gotchas" to look like you won an argument on the Internet?
  
  You know, all of this information:
  
  "Study 1 provides evidence that children may not be given the

  privilege of innocence equally across race. From ages 0 –9, children
  were seen as equally innocent regardless of race. However,
  perceptions of innocence began to diverge at age 10. At this point,
  participants began to think of Black children as significantly less
  innocent than other children at every age group, beginning at the
  age of 10. Interestingly, after the age of 10, the perceived innocence
  of Black children is equal to or less than the perceived
  innocence of non-Black children in the next oldest cohort. In other
  words, the perceived innocence of Black children age 10 –13 was
  equivalent to that of non-Black children age 14 –17, and the
  perceived innocence of Black children age 14 –17 was equivalent
  to that of non-Black adults age 18 –21."
• 

  Pacopoolio

  To summarize my stance before it gets lost in individual back and forth replies (and so it can be directly referenced):
  
  The problems, not only with the riots in Ferguson, but also police killing people in general, and killing black people much more, even for the same offenses (cited earlier) are based on a ton of systematic societal problems in this country. They are based on a mix of the aftereffects of hundreds of years of slavery and a century of segregation after that, which ended so shortly ago that people who lived under these systems have positions of power now. They are also based on police standards, militarization of police, styles and types of training, and lethal force vs. alternatives. And they are based on a lack of education, media representation (of EVERYTHING, not just race), and a ton of other things.
  
  However, it should be no surprise that a people who do, by default, daily live under a strain of varying oppression, would react horribly when a pot hits the boiling point. That has been proven to ALWAYS happen. Therefore, the focus of the situation should not be pointing the finger at people who do what people will always do, but pointing at the root causes of some of the issues.
  
  For instance, I can easily sympathize with someone viewing black people in baggy clothes as "thugs" or more dangerous as a default; because there's a ridiculously strong media representation of that, which is constantly pounded in your face every single day. That begs the question, then, why is this representation so skewed, in the first place, and why is it allowed to continue? As some of those papers referenced in other studies; black people, with the same crimes, were more likely to be shown as handcuffed than other races on the news. Clear channel controls music distribution, and they purposely push artists like Little Wayne and such and give them front and center exposure. Movies, for years, only cast black actors in violent or aggressive roles, by and large. Etc. How can you blame people for having skewed images when the images are skewed for them?

  You can't change people from being human, but you can hit the core influences, or improve an overall standard of life for large groups of people. That's where the focus should be.
• 

  Simon

  For instance, I can easily sympathize with someone viewing black people in baggy clothes as "thugs" or more dangerous as a default; because there's a ridiculously strong media representation of that, which is constantly pounded in your face every single day. That begs the question, then, why is this representation so skewed, in the first place, and why is it allowed to continue?

  Is it skewed? The raw stats suggest that they are much more likely to be involved with violent crime. It's unfair to blame the media for that representation if the media is just being accurate.

  We need to look at the causes for violence and crime and the fact that black people are not only viewed as more likely to be criminal is a symptom, not a cause although there is probably some feedback loop but I suspect it's slight.

  Poverty, poor education and lack of good male role models are more likely causes IMO. All three exist in other communities as well so there are other factors such as social attitudes - the history of slavery and racism is undoubtedly a factor in resentment and anger that can act as a multiplier. It depends on how things are taught and how people are taught to react. Perhaps promoting sadness for the suffering but thankfulness for the change would be better than anger because of past injustice?

  The message that we keep seeing the supposedly educated leaders promiting is always injustice / anger / resentment and I see those as big factors in keeping people where they are. I think they do it knowlingly and intentionally to keep themselves relevant.

  Poverty is part cause but also part symptom. Education is the thing to really target and that helps people to lift themselves out of poverty.

  Good male role models is a mix of broken families / absentee parenting which is a combination of culture and results of crime / incarceration rates.

  The thing to tackle first is education but it can't be just giving fake credits to black kids so they can play on the football team - it needs to be proper education such that they can get a job and have a future.

  They need role models to promote respect and decency. It can't be the case that trying to better yourself is considered 'too white' and the only thing to aspire to is a self destructive or negative steryotype.
• 

  Pacopoolio

  Simon,

  The data is skewed by default as it doesn't show who commits more crime, just who is a) arrested, or b) convicted for it. You can't use those stats to say "commits more crime"; it's bad statistical reading (not by you Simon; I'm referring to the sources who report it as such, of which you're probably repeating it from, as I've read that before as well).

  The default comes in because black people are both incarcirated and arrested more, for the same crimes, as other people. Since they get higher arrests and convictions, you can't use that as the basis to say they commit more crime.
  
  Media representation is skewed often based on the roles given. When I get calls for film, for instance, they only want a set number of black people, etc. or don't want Asians or Hispanics for certain roles, etc. Throughout film/television history, minorities were delegated to spot roles, while the majority gets broad representation (Women also have this issue as compared to men in other aspects).

  Clear Channel, producers, etc. directly control music tastes of the masses with popular music. They directly choose what they want to push. Tupac, etc. got a following talking about real life struggles and dreams of the black children of the parents who grew up in more oppressed times, and were now living in ghettos with little chance to escape. Along with things like police harassment, etc. Producers saw this was successful in the underground, pushed this as the majority, and then it gradually morphed into what it is today, taking the "dreams" (money, women, items) and making it the entire message, while emphasizing the shirtless, strong, stereotypical "thug" look. Etc. etc. etc.
  
  There are psychological aspects of oppression that are often ignored. Just as if someone is robbed by a black person dressed in some way, they may be more fearful of that look by default, so will a black kid be distrustful of cops if he's harassed and assaulted by them for no reason, or sees others who are. If someone believes a police officer will shoot them, even when unarmed, a flight or fight instinct will automatically kick in, which is a problem.
  
  While it's fiction, I recommend The Wire - especially season 4, that basically follows 4 kids raised in the inner city, whose lives have wildly different outcomes, just by chance, basically (who they are exposed to, and when - or when things work against them in life and exactly the worst times). David Simon (the creator) was a reporter in Baltimore and based much of it on actual events.
  
  I agree that poverty, education, and other things are all huge factors - but the whole thing is a combination of interlocking issues.
• 

  Simon

  The data is skewed by default as it doesn't show who commits more crime, just who is a) arrested, or b) convicted for it. You can't use those stats to say "commits more crime"; it's bad statistical reading (not by you Simon; I'm referring to the sources who report it as such, of which you're probably repeating it from, as I've read that before as well).

  The default comes in because black people are both incarcirated and arrested more, for the same crimes, as other people. Since they get higher arrests and convictions, you can't use that as the basis to say they commit more crime.

  I'm sorry, but that is wishful thinking. I think it may work as an argument for low-level, stop-and-search type crimes (e.g. caught with pot) but when you look at serious violent crime the detection rates are not skewed like this - the police don't pick someone at random and hope to get lucky, they investigate the crimes as they come up.

  The majority of homicides are black people killing other black people (again, the police can't control the race of the victims which is another area your argument would fall down). The statistics are awful because they are terrible to read but also because they seem to be ignored by the community leadership.

  All this talk about how they are so at risk from "whitey shooty cop" is utter bull crap - if you are black then chances are you'll be killed by another black man. It's not cherry picked incidents or skewed portrayals - it's a hard unfortunate fact.

  Given that the violent crime stats are so bad then I would be willing to consider it reasonable to suggest that other types of crime follow a similar distribiution (unless black people jump from littering to murder for some reason) so "commits more crime" is a well supported statement even taking into account some variance in detection rates.

  If you think there is less crime in black communitites then why not go live there? Wouldn't it be safer?
• 

  EndofMysteries

  Here is what I think is the real issue, based off of these facts.....

  1. Michael Brown's father AND SUPPORTERS mention an assassination of Michael Brown's character and attack on his character.

  2. 50% of black males have criminal records and black males commit over 50% of all burg/theft crimes.

  Now my thoughts. How exactly was Michael Brown's character assassinated? Did anybody make him steal from the store, and strong arm the store clerk? Did anybody make him attack and punch the police officer? So were they supposed to be quiet about that so they could claim he was just a good boy who never did nothing?

  OR

  Are those things normal and expected of everybody and every good boy does those things but mentioning it publically is wrong? Since all the supporters are taking revealing those facts as an attack on his character, that tells me that to them it's perfectly acceptable to steal, rob, attack somebody who tells you what to do even police (get out of the road), etc.

  So that 50% + of the population of the black community feel that they have a right to steal, rob, and do whatever they want. If a black cop killed him there would have been no problem, but how dare a 'white' cop interfere and when he ends up dead, he is off.

  They are rioting for their right to steal and rob whenver they want, and is shown by the looting and burning going on. And many of them don't care about michael brown, they just see a chance to rob and steal amidst the protests for an easier way to not get caught.

  Now the other 30/40% law abiders are just being silent on the issue because if they chime in then these criminal protestors will attack them too and they'll be called traitors to their people, etc.

  Then the news, Obama, and the stupid used car saleman sharpton, and james riling everyone up too to get more money.
• 

  Simon

  Now my thoughts. How exactly was Michael Brown's character assassinated? Did anybody make him steal from the store, and strong arm the store clerk? Did anybody make him attack and punch the police officer? So were they supposed to be quiet about that so they could claim he was just a good boy who never did nothing?

  OR

  Are those things normal and expected of everybody and every good boy does those things but mentioning it publically is wrong? Since all the supporters are taking revealing those facts as an attack on his character, that tells me that to them it's perfectly acceptable to steal, rob, attack somebody who tells you what to do even police (get out of the road), etc.

  I think the family either genuinely don't know the difference between right and wrong or didn't know and can't accept what MB was really like.

  Having seen his step-fathers reaction (which was not normal grief 3-months after the event - it was pure hate) and some of their other antics then I think there is a good possibility that his behavior and attitudes mirrored theirs. The saintification of MB is rediculous.

  I personally think they should not have been making any statements at all. They were accusing the police officer of murder without knowing any of the facts or waiting for the proper investigation to take place. All that did was incite the crowds and now we have all this destruction in no small part due to their lies and incitement.

  It does all seem to be about intimidation rather than real outrage that any crime has actually been committed. Everyone can see the reality of what happened and that justice has been completed but they don't care. It's a chance for many to throw things at police and live up to all the steryotypes.

  Don't forget though that the ones you see on TV protesting are the minority. The normal people are the ones who were working to make the place better, running local businesses and employing people. Now many sadly burnt down. They are the victims in all this as well as officer wilson and the police and any witnesses who told the truth and maybe live in fear as a result.

  MBs family? The sooner we stop seeing them on TV the better.
• 

  Pacopoolio

  Stop and search crimes are the majority of misdemeanors, and what are used in crime statistics. Violent crime stats are something else. Guess who gets searched more, on average?
  
  I don't know what the black on black homicdes have to do with anything. And what is "community leadership?" There's no leaders for millions of people separated by that large of a geographical divide; just people the media like to stick in front of the T.V., who do not represent the thoughts or feelings of anyone besides themselves.

  Blacks killing blacks has nothing to do with white cops shooting blacks more often for the same things. I got picked up by my neck by a cop for no reason as a teen, and pulled over and thrown out of my car as well for being a "suspected theif." That made me like a thousand percent more distrustful of police by default. That has nothing to do with me being scared of 5 black guys walking down the street in the middle of the night. That just means I'm MORE scared than someone who has never had a confrontation with the police at all. You keep creating either/or equivalncies instead of seeing things as a pile of issues/problems that gets added on.
  
  I live in downtown Detroit right now, and lived in Southfield as well. Why are you asking "why don't I live in black communities?" I just don't live in direct POOR areas with low police presence to avoid crime - that's the difference.
  
  Crime doesn't relate 1-1 with other crimes. Domestic violence curves don't necessarily follow speeding violation curves which don't necessarily relate with other things. Most murders disproportionately happen in the poorest areas of inner cities. The poorest areas of inner cities also have less police, much worse education, etc. etc. etc. And statistically more black people. So is the problem the fact that they're black or the correlation values with the living conditions of those areas?
  
  Some of the links I posted directly link to the representational stats (for instance, noting how many crimes were shown on television, the races, and how the offenders of those races were portrayed in comparison).
• 

  Pacopoolio

  End of Mysteries, do you believe 40% of the "white community" get to steal, rob, and do whatever they want, too, given the percentage of white males that have been arrested? Do you complain that the other 40/50% of law abiders doesn't speak up every time someone white does something wrong? Then, what in the world point are you trying to make, regarding black people?