Creationist Should Dismiss Genesis Quickly

by Coded Logic 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    To some degree, you are probably right. Here's a key difference in our perspective, however: you're suggesting that only a small portion of this god would be used for the universe. I'm suggesting that it could be half of the god, or even the whole god. We can't theorize what a god would be made of. It could be that he has no "body" and is all "mind". In that case the god could have essentially turned himself into the universe.

    On a certain level this is a meaningless suggestion, because there's probably nothing we can do with this information. I'm just pointing out that there are assumptions behind your complexity argument. Additionally, even if "creator+universe" were two times more complex than just "universe", that is far from ruling out the possibility. It might simply make the odds 2:1 against a creator, which aren't long odds at all.

    I'm sorry if you feel this is all unfalsifiable, but that's not really my problem. I'm simply commenting on probability, not feasibility for scientific experiments.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Here's a key difference in our perspective, however: you're suggesting that only a small portion of this god would be used for the universe. I'm suggesting that it could be half of the god, or even the whole god. We can't theorize what a god would be made of. It could be that he has no "body" and is all "mind". In that case the god could have essentially turned himself into the universe.

    Even if you take your example of a god turning itself into our universe that process would involve the transformation of energy from one form into another, assuming that this transformation follows the laws of physics then a certain portion of that transformation would involve entropy losses. Hence you still have the same problem that you had before just on a smaller scale.

    If you want to say your god is utterly unfalsifiable that is fine by me, I thought that anyway.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Caedes said:

    If you cannot understand how adding a powerful creator god adds a hugely additional level of complexity to the natural universe then I don't know I can help you. We are not talking about maths we are talking about the concept. Of course any god sufficiently powerful to create universes has to be more complex than it's creation.

    By complex do you mean composed of "many parts" (Dawkins type definition)

    If so, What is the evidence that a supernatural God must be composed of "parts"???

    Hooberus,

    See my post 1968 where I answered your question.

    here is that post

    Hooberus,

    I quite agree there is exactly zero empirical evidence for your god having any parts at all!

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Caedes, Do you still hold to the following?:

    If you cannot understand how adding a powerful creator god adds a hugely additional level of complexity to the natural universe then I don't know I can help you. We are not talking about maths we are talking about the concept. Of course any god sufficiently powerful to create universes has to be more complex than it's creation.

    If so, by complex do you mean composed of "many parts" (Dawkins type definition)?

    and, if so, What is the evidence that a supernatural God must be composed of "parts"???

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    If you want to say your god is utterly unfalsifiable that is fine by me, I thought that anyway.

    He's not "my" god, but I think we're otherwise in agreement.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Complexity - The amount of information in a certain volume.

    That's not any definition of complexity ever.

    Information - Any set of values that can be read from some arrangement of material.

    That's not any definition of information ever.

    I see your problem. You're using not actual definitions of words.

    You're defining information as "something meaningful to humans".

    I most certainly did NOT do that.

    If you want some citation of a work that agrees with my definition, then we can simply look at the lede of the "Information" article from Wikipedia, which supports both of our definitions (mine is underlined):

    It most certainly does NOT do that. Let's look and see why:

    "Information (shortened as info or info.) is that which informs, i.e. that from which data and knowledge can be derived (as data represents values attributed to parameters, and knowledge signifies understanding of real things or abstract concepts).

    In the portion you underlined which you claim supports your non-definition of "any set of values that can be read from some arrangement of material", you ignore the crucial parts you didn't underline, such as "that which informs", that from which data and knowledge can be derived", etc. You are cherry picking out of context sentence fragements without considering the context and the whole.

    It doesn't work that way. In your version "+ 4 2 = 2" and "224+=" contain the same information as "2+2 = 4". Clearly that is a nonsensical postion but what logically your incorrect definition of information would lead to.

    As it regards data, the information's existence is not necessarily coupled to an observer (it exists beyond an event horizon, for example)

    Your arguing against a claim no one but you erronously made about someone else.

    At its most fundamental, information is any propagation of cause and effect within a system."

    All arrangements don't produce propogation, further evidence that your incorrect definition isn't an actual definition.

    No analogy is perfect, so if you delve deeply enough into the subject of computer engineering you can probably find a flaw in my analogy, but that will only detract from the validity of my analogy, not the validity of my original proposition.

    Your analogy wasn't just imperfect, it was demonstrably wrong. You even proved it with your Wikipedia quotes, although I highly doubt you realized that.

    Once again, the reason I say this is that a brain has constant complexity on the physical level regardless of what it is being used for.

    Demonstrably false. Your wikipedia quotes can be used to prove this also.

    The next step in my argument was going to be that, if the creator is using any part of himself to produce the universe, then the complexity is the same

    See above.

    I think the issue is that you are using not-actual definitions of things apart from any standard or derivative use. You really just don't seem to understand the terms you are using and the implication of the things you are reading.

    Seriously, you seem like a smart cookie, but the way you are using "complexity" and "information" are just way way way off.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    I'm sorry if you feel this is all unfalsifiable, but that's not really my problem. I'm simply commenting on probability, not feasibility for scientific experiments.

    It is your problem since you are proposing it. Also, you aren't commenting on probablity, but simply arguing from incredulity.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Complexity - The amount of information in a certain volume.

    It seems that the dictionary definition is simply "having many parts". I could have played it safe and used such a definition. The reason why I proposed this alternate definition is that I wanted to encourage you guys to think about the information conveyed by parts. In other words, a modern car engine has more parts (I assume) than a car engine from 1900. The same-sized engine block therefore contains more information in a modern car.

    You can accuse me of making up my own definitions, but I don't believe I'm actually doing that. I'm simply rephrasing the existing definition, which seemed slanted towards describing physical objects. I believe that the original definition works for my argument too, however.

    To restate my assertion one more time using the precise dictionary definition of the word, "A brain does not increase in 'the number of parts it has' when it is thinking about something complex." I find this statement to be a poor representation of what I was trying to say, but it is indisputably true nonetheless.

    On the subject of information, I have to retract my statement. I wasn't thinking clearly about what I know about information theory and noise vs. information. It's not really true that a network with random values has the same amount of information as a network that is storing something useful like a phone book. I don't know why I said that, I guess I need to get more sleep.

    That being said, I don't really think this affects my suggestion. It was my feeling from the beginning that it was not necessary to argue the definitions of these terms. My point was that a creator is not adding considerable complexity to the scenario if the universe is essentially replacing an existing, equally-complex part of the creator. This is a very simple point that shouldn't require arguments over words because the terms are self-defining in that statement. The only objection to this idea that I can think of is that it pushes back the development of our universe's complexity to a "god universe" where this god evolved naturally, then made us deliberately. See below.

    It is your problem since you are proposing it. Also, you aren't commenting on probablity, but simply arguing from incredulity.

    I'm not arguing that the "something from nothing" hypothesis is incredible (as in, "unbelievable"), but simply pointing out that it's arrogant of humans to think they really have already, at this primitive stage of science, worked out the answer to how the universe got here. We don't know nearly enough to say that such a scientific idea is probable, only that it's possible, let alone do we know enough to say that the idea of a creator is less possible.

    This forum is for discussion and not for conducting scientific research or even debating academically, so I feel totally justified in stating my personal opinions here regardless of whether they are currently testable. You are free to deride these ideas, of course. It doesn't really bother me because I know that you guys have allergic reactions to anything that smacks of mystical thinking.

    I generally agree with you on that count, but I thought I would bring up an alternative viewpoint as a basic philosophical exercise. In hindsight I wish I never spoke up, since I really didn't want to spend hours defending a viewpoint that I'm not strongly attached to.

  • prologos
    prologos

    hear hear.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    It seems that the dictionary definition is simply "having many parts".

    It seems that is completely made up to suit your argument. Note that not a single definition listed below, nor any in the context we are discussing, means at all what you are claiming.

    adjective adjective: complex ˌkämˈpleks , kəmˈpleks , ˈkämˌpleks / 1. consisting of many different and connected parts. " a complex network of water channels "

    synonyms: compound, composite, multiplex " a complex structure "

    adjective

    1. composed of many interconnected parts; compound; composite: a complex highway system. 2. characterized by a very complicated or involved arrangement of parts, units, etc.: complex machinery.

    The reason why I proposed this alternate definition is that I wanted to encourage you guys to think about the information conveyed by parts.

    Wait, you just said that seemed like the dictionary definition, now you are admitting you are making it up!

    You can accuse me of making up my own definitions, but I don't believe I'm actually doing that.

    You just admitted it. Your attempt to deflect that reality has nothing to do with it.

    To restate my assertion one more time using the precise dictionary definition of the word, "A brain does not increase in 'the number of parts it has' when it is thinking about something complex."

    It still actually does, your incorrect and made up definition having nothing to do with it, however. I generally agree with you on that count, but I thought I would bring up an alternative viewpoint as a basic philosophical exercise.

    Philosophy is understanding why we thing what we do and trying to discover if there is a better way to think. You are starting from the position of trying to re-define words, admitting that's what you are doing and then denying doing that thing.

    Understanding words is the first step before you attempt philosophical exercises. Learn to crawl before you try to run a marathon.

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