Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile) (page 4)

cofty

Satan does not exist in the earliest parts of the OT before the Babylonian exile. Everything was attributed to Yahweh - good and evil.

If somebody experienced bad things they must have offended god even if they didn't now what it was. The book of Job was a challenge to this worldview. The opening and closing chapters are later additions.

In Babylon the Jews encountered the Zoroastrian religion of Persia with it's battle between good and evil. Good god has a nemesis. They brought this back and incorporated it into their Jewish religion. Now, when Samuel and Kings are rewriten as Chronicles Satan makes his entrance. No longer does Yahweh make David take a census and then kill thousands of Israelites; now in the new version Satan made David do it.

In the 21st century believing in Satan and demons is the ultimate in superstition.

As far as your question about evolution is concerned please do a search for earlier threads. Here is a great place to start...

Please take some time to read this thread carefully.

There is no substitute though for doing your own research. Take your time, it has taken me over a decade to scratch the surface.

Here are some books you will find interesting. Feel free to ask questions, we were once where you are now - some still are.

"The making of the fittest" by Sean B Carroll

"Evolution, what the fossils say" by Donald Prothero

"Why Evolution is true" by Jerry Coyne

"Your Inner Fish" by Neil Shubin

"The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins (Summary of part of it here...)

"The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins

"Life Ascending" by Nick Lane

"Endless Forms Most Beautiful" by Sean B. Carroll.

cofty

Sorry I have now fixed the link to "The Common Ancestry Thread"

In summary the strongest evidence for evolution is contained in every cell in your body. The very same techniques that are used in court to convict murderers and rapists prove that we share a common ancestor with all other living things.

No honest person who understands the evidence can doubt this fact.

OnTheWayOut

A big welcome to you and I am glad you are free.

For those that went from JW to Christianity to atheism, what was the turning point for you to give up on God? i am interested in hearing.

I guess I didn't GO TO Christianity in any real sense. I woke up to the truth about THE TRUTH from studying doctrine mainly. After learning how Jehovah's Witnesses were so wrong, I figured Christendom had better answers than JW's. While I didn't attend church, I figured God would understand why I could not attend and lose my family connections.

But I didn't stop at learning about Jehovah's Witnesses. I looked at the Bible with the same critical eyes. I looked at Science and what is known and compared evidence of Genesis/Exodus ever being remotely true. While I was mostly satisfied that there was no flood, no tower of Babel, no exodus, I still was on the fence about God. Despite all the headway science is making in origins of the planet, the star, the universe, I still saw that God could have been there.

But as Cofty says, " There is just no answer to why a loving god would allow millions of deaths from avoidable incidents." Looking back at 2004 for the Indonesian tsunami, I just couldn't imagine the all-powerful, all-wise, all-loving God that tore tens and tens (maybe 100,000 or more) of thousands of children away from their family to kill them, or even one who stood by and just let that happen. Who among us would be that callous?

If others don't agree with me, I am fine with that. But I certainly could never see how such a God would be worthy of worship.

Ucantnome

I'm free

I was never really into organized religion even when I was a witness always felt that I would never have been one if my parents hadn't been witnesses but I was reluctant to leave in the end and sometimes consider returning just to hear the bible based talks I have been to a few churches with someone who wanted to try them but it wasn't something I felt a need for although I feel my christian views are still as strong as the day I last attended the hall twenty years ago never had a period of doubt.

never a jw

welcome Im free

I am an agnostic (as an attempt to remain neutral and objective), but I lean towards no God or the God of Einstein and Spinoza, that is, an impersonal force that maintains the laws of Physics that regulate the universe. At 13 or 14 I left religion for good, but it is during the last 2 years that I have learned about the Bible, JW's, Christianity and Judaism. To keep it short, an in-depth study of all those four subjects is likely to lead anyone with an open mind and a strong interest in truth in the direction of atheism or agnosticism. Higher and lower criticism of the Bible is far more interesting than any religious Biblical study you have ever had, or any meeting or convention you have ever attended, but it most certainly will push you away from your belief in a personal God.

bemused

Im_free

I was a bit puzzled by your second post. You seem to be under the impression that atheists deny that Jesus ever existed. In my experience most people accept that there probably was such a religious-political Jewish leader active in the Middle East at that time. However atheists reject the notion that this individual was in some sense divine, on the grounds of lack of supporting evidence.

You are arguing I think that the subsequent growth of Christianity could not have happened by chance. In fact its major influence on Western society might never have happened without one event - the conversion of the Roman emporor Constantine. Anyway, couldn't a Hindu argue in exactly the same way? How could their religion have grown to 1 billion adherents by chance?

You're obviously full of questions and I'm sure you'll be searching for answers. My recommended reading would be 'The Magic of Reality' by Richard Dawkins - it's very clear and readable.

KateWild

Welcome Im_free, thank you for your story. You and your wife have certainly had an interesting journey since the 90's. I too believe in God the creator but, I cannot accept he is a benevolent God that cares about us. I don't believe in the God of the Bible, I don't belive that is was from God at all.

Kate xx

KateWild

Satan does not exist in the earliest parts of the OT before the Babylonian exile. Everything was attributed to Yahweh - good and evil.-cofty

I disagree the serpent was mentioned in Gen Ch 3, the rest of the bible refers to him being the father of the lie, Satan the Devil. It's evil to lie, hence the bible introduces evil straight away. In the first chapter of Job, satan has a conversation with God, the whole book of Job features Satan.

The point is do we belive what the bible teaches about evil. As I think that God is indifferent to us I likewise feel there is no evil force that cares about what we do. I do believe that people can be selfish, greedy, inconsiderate and hurtful. These types of people are evil. But people can also be the opposite.

Kate xx

Terry

I find Freedom by staying as far away as possible from persons claiming TO KNOW God.

NOBODY knows anything but their own OPINION of God.

Why should I bother myself with people who are no better or smarter than I am and their OPINION?

Well, I don't.

I won't waste another minute of my fleeting existence trading opinions and pretending anybody is saying something deep or true.

I'm in the "I don't know" business.

I don't have an opinion about things I don't know because it is intellectually dishonest to do so.

You know what's worse? Teaching others your opinion and calling it "truth."

Freedom is only Freedom if you don't trade it for something else.

cofty

I disagree the serpent was mentioned in Gen Ch 3, the rest of the bible refers to him being the father of the lie, Satan the Devil. It's evil to lie, hence the bible introduces evil straight away. In the first chapter of Job, satan has a conversation with God, the whole book of Job features Satan. - KateWild

Satan is not mentioned in Gen 3. A snake spoke to Eve. Its an ancient creation myth in which there is no Satan. He is not connected with the serpent until the NT.

If you read my post you would see that I metioned that the intro and end of Job is a latr post-exile addition. Contrast and compare Samuel/Kings with Chronicles.

Pre-exile Jews had no concpet of a Satan. Dualism was adopted during the exile from Persian Zoroastriansim.

It is a mistake to think of the bible as a book. It is a random and contradictory collection of books writen over 1500 years.

Leaving the JWs, experiencing Christianity and finding freedom! (But it took awhile)

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