Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    Good grief! You insist on looking only at my first sentence, taking it out of context and insisting that the intent of my post was to defend faith without reason, when reading the rest of my post makes it clear that is not what I believe at all.

    Do you actually think I changed from a believer to a non believer from post one to post two? That makes no sense. If I am not a believer, then why would I defend faith without reason? The answer is: I wouldn't and I didn't.

    Most believers do think there is reason to put faith in God, that's the problem, they are basing their faith on words in a book, when there is no evidence that the things in that book happened, or that the person in that book actually exists

    What about the above sentence is defending faith without reason? I only brought up having faith in a person to show that a person has to earn faith but people put faith in God simply a book says he exists.

    I think most people choose to believe as a way of coping with their present life and to make them feel more comfortable about the prospect of dying. That is why they will not question their beliefs, because it is based on emotional needs, not logic.

    What about the above sentence is defending faith without logic? What about it is not clear?

    That is why they will not question their beliefs, because it is based on emotional needs, not logic. No proof or logical reasoning with work with them, because their belief is not based on logic. It is only when a person is willing to look at the facts and be open to where that takes them that they can get rid of the God delusion.

    Again, is that defending faith without reason? I am saying belief in God is based on emotional needs, not logic. Look, you came in to this board making broad accusations about people here not using logic and reason. Many took offense, and rightly so . Instead of choosing an example of failed logic, you made a broad accusation, something that is impossible to refute. So now again you go on the attack, claiming I said something I clearly didn't, taking my words out of context and refusing to consider the totality of my post. You created a disagreement when none exists.

    I think you are the one that has problems with logic. In a year of posting actively on JWN I have never had anyone misinterpret my posts in the way you have. Others may not always agree with me, but they have always understood the point I was making, and many have said they appreciate my posts very much because I am reasonable and fair, so it's hard for me to think I am not capable of writing a clear and understandable post.

    I an done with this thread, I think this horse has been beaten enough. I am sorry I said you were pathetic, but I was hurt that you criticized me unfairly and didn't read my entire post before attacking it. I don't normally take offense easily, I am undergoing some health issues, the pain makes me cranky sometimes. But I stand by my original post and my belief That you misinterpreted my words.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Everyone knows what is right and wrong, and they are FREE to make any choice, BUT NOT FREE to choose the results which are predetermined. The discreet one will learn from other’s experiences. The indiscreet one will learn from his own experience, paying a price.

    OK. What is right and wrong? Is sex out of wedlock wrong? What if one lives ina society where wedlock, as defined by Western Society, doesn't exist? Is gay marriage wrong? What about being transgender? Stealing to feed your family? Killing someone? Smoking marijuana?

    Define exactly and specifically what is right and wrong, please and how "everyone" know it given that there are so many disagreements.

    A clock is not meant to know how it is made of, so is our mind. We only need to unfold our inner qualities—Mathew 7:12

    I didn't ask about a clock. You are making claims to know what a spirit creature wants. I am simply asking what this spirit creature is made of. How does it communicate, how can we see or detect it? And humans are making great strides in knowing how our minds work and is constructed, so that analogy failes miserably.

    What are our inner qualities? How are they defined? What makes them good or bad? You have a lot of work to do to avoid speaking in meaningless gibberish.

    Bible has been corrupted, says Bible itself. (Jeremiah 7:22; 8:8; compare Acts 20:28-30) Will God permit corruption of the Bible if it really did belong to Him.

    Then, using your reasoning, I can discount everything you have said since it relys on a corrupted and self-defying manuscript.

    Hence look at Nature. God has kept lessons for us in it.—Romans 1:20 (Bible is corrupted, yet some eternal truth contains in it intact such as Mathew 5:44-48; 7:12; James 2:8 ..... which are the same lessons found in the nature too, hence we can quote such verses)

    Oooops, you can't use that because it could be corrupted. You'll need to prove it's an eternal truth independantly of the Bible to be accepted, according to you.

    You've all your work ahead of you. I wouldn't want to accidentally accept poison from you because you mistakenly thought corrupted scripture was "eternal truth". You're say so isn't good enough. No cherry picking. You've got to connect the dots from "lessons found in nature" to eternal truth found admist poisonous scripture.

    Be specific with objective evidence.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Do you actually think I changed from a believer to a non believer from post one to post two? That makes no sense. If I am not a believer, then why would I defend faith without reason? The answer is: I wouldn't and I didn't.

    Lisa, from what I can tell, CL thinks he is incredibly smart and loves to come here and tell us all how stupid we are while being incredibly wrong a large percentage of the time. Were I you, I wouldn't do anything that point out his first and obvious error and then let him spend the next 20 posts proving what a blowhard he is.

  • sunny23
    sunny23

    CL if there is one thing I have learned from Viviane, it's to know your EXACT definitions and state your points clearly and concisely!

    faith

    LisaRose in her first post initially adressed the #1 type of faith using the friend analogy and its general acceptance and then contrasted it with the WRONG use of it when applying it (#1) to God because of #2 requiring proof and there is non for God. She was never "transposing the meaning of faith onto the word 'trust'" She was only contrasting the use of #1 and #2 by theists and I feel her post was fine. She is saying there is NO reason for believers to put faith #1 OR #2 in God and yet many believers THINK there is reason to put faith #1 AND #2 in God. Just because this thread might be more about #2 doesn't mean you can't adress #1 and how believers try to attribute it to God because THAT is relevant to this thread and IS one definition of "faith." That's what I get out of it. I'll admit I did at first get the same feeling you did in making wrong assumptions as you read it. Although CL never actually accused LisaRose of having religious faith so idk where that came from, he doesn't have problems with logic (here anyway), I think it's a misunderstanding of definitions and misinterpreting a post, or two. This forum/site taught me to come to agreements on exact definitions before you make accusations.

    Ok done mediating, lets talk about vices of faith, Donnye, where did you go?

  • sunny23
    sunny23

    EDIT: when I said "because of #2 requiring proof and there is non for God."

    Meant to say "because of #1 being proof based and #2 apprehension based and there is no proof for God."

  • Pinku
    Pinku

    Viviane

    When I got up from my sleep, I was really surprised to see so many questions you have put for me!

    1) Your question: What is right and wrong? Is sex out of wedlock wrong? What if one lives in a society where wedlock, as defined by Western Society, doesn't exist? Is gay marriage wrong? What about being transgender? Stealing to feed your family? Killing someone? Smoking marijuana? Define exactly and specifically what is right and wrong, please and how "everyone" know it given that there are so many disagreements.

    I said “everyone KNOWS what is right and wrong. If you are in a queue, and a late-comer breaks in the queue and got his work done before others who came earlier than him—will not everyone unanimously say what he did was wrong? When some takes delight in the welfare of ALL BEINGS—will not everyone unanimously say what he does is right? This is about KNOWING what is right and wrong. If there is so many disagreements—it means many do not want to follow what they know is right and wrong.

    Questions such as Is sex out of wedlock wrong?... too belong to the same category EVERYONE knows for sure with absolute clarity. Ask yourself how would you feel when you see your life-partner having sex out of wedlock? Stealing to feed one’s family? Change the object—if someone else in the same situation steals something from this thief, will he approve it? Likewise, if you are not sure about some actions as to whether they are right or wrong, put yourself as the object of such actions—you WILL know whether they are right or wrong! Or you can use this simple logic: ALL ACTIONS THAT RESULT IN WELFARE OF ALL IS GOOD; AND ALL ACTION THAT RESULT IN HARM TO YOURSELF AND OTHERS ARE WRONG! This is simple, because we are all living in an ocean of experiences—or our own and of others!

    2) You say: I didn't ask about a clock. You are making claims to know what a spirit creature wants. I am simply asking what this spirit creature is made of. How does it communicate, how can we see or detect it? And humans are making great strides in knowing how our minds work and is constructed, so that analogy fails miserably.

    This analogy of a clock with mind is from the globally acclaimed book “ABCs of the Human Mind” written by a group of eminent Psychologists, published byReaders Digest. In fact analogy is superb. It’s too obvious that any object whether (clock or mind) is not meant to know its own make-up. We can know some superficial details which you call “great strides.” What you will ever know in the future too about the mind/consciousness will still be superficial details. (http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/10-brain-myths.htm#page=0) Only the real CREATOR will have all the details about our Mind. Forget about mind. Think about your own bodies, made of trillions of cells. How much do we know about cells? “Even if you could count ten cells each second, it would take you tens of thousands of years to finish counting. But those estimates sprawled over a huge range, from 5 billion to 200 million trillion cells. And practically none of scientists who offered those numbers provided an explanation for how they came up with them.” (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/10/23/how-many-cells-are-in-your-body/) Are they in our control? (http://www.newscientist.com/special/unknown-human-genome)

    3) What are our inner qualities? How are they defined? What makes them good or bad?

    We all have a wonderful vehicle called our physical bodies. Once the driver (the self/consciousness/soul/divinity), leaves its seat, body becomes a horribly foul-smelling trash that provides a feast for micro-organisms and worms. This means the divinity, or the soul is more important than the body, and the most fundamental factor of our existence is the consciousness of existence. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) Thus it’s very easy to become spiritual because all it takes is UNFOLDING like a wound-up spring, not actually about effort! When you have the above understanding, your values and priority will change, many spiritual qualities will surface one after the other automatically:

    a) In the above AWARENESS, I know that my spirit (conscious energy) is superior to material energy that make up the physical body, hence have to re-establish my sovereignty over my body-senses, and begin to act with PURE motive towards others as I am one with them in make-up (spirit + body).

    b) In this PURITY, there emerges JOY.

    c) In this JOYFULNESS, I want others also to be joyful as I am, hence I should begin to care for others’ needs without being asked for and without even expecting anything in return (which is called LOVE).

    d) In this LOVE, I give and receive love, as a result of which PEACE is experienced by me and others around. [In all these five basic qualities of spirit, there are positive side-effects—they make me powerful (POWER) against any relapse, like butter extracted from milk will not merge with water any more. They will also help me to remain blissful/balanced (BLISS) towards all circumstances and all beings!]

    Just a change in view would bring in many elevated qualities. These are qualities of the spirit (compare Galatians 5:22) Manifesting then in your life is SPIRITuality! They are good because it brings harmony between your body and mind; between you and your contacts, and you and nature, all of which would make your life smooth, increase your immunity power …...untold benefits which you yourself can find out by experimenting them!

    4) You say I cannot quote from the Bible if I believe it is corrupted!

    Bible is not a substance like milk so that we should not make use of even a drop of it if it has gone corrupted. Bible is a book with over 30000 verses. A fair-minded human being can know what is good and what is interpolation. For example, selfish statements such as those intended to bring material benefits to the religious leaders through sacrifices and rituals—are all interpolations—Jeremiah 7:22; 8:8. Those that speak about welfare of ALL such as Mathew 5:44-48; 7:12; James 2:8 …. are universally accepted norms which most Constitutions of the countries uphold.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Pinku: We're not here to listen to your sensless religious ramblings and attempts to prove the bible by random quotes.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Questions such as Is sex out of wedlock wrong ?... too belong to the same category EVERYONE knows for sure with absolute clarity. Ask yourself how would you feel when you see your life-partner having sex out of wedlock? Stealing to feed one’s family? Change the object—if someone else in the same situation steals something from this thief, will he approve it? Likewise, if you are not sure about some actions as to whether they are right or wrong, put yourself as the object of such actions—you WILL know whether they are right or wrong! Or you can use this simple logic: ALL ACTIONS THAT RESULT IN WELFARE OF ALL IS GOOD; AND ALL ACTION THAT RESULT IN HARM TO YOURSELF AND OTHERS ARE WRONG! This is simple, because we are all living in an ocean of experiences—or our own and of others!

    Your non-answer is complete hogwash. What harm does sex out of wedlock do to anyone else? It's only "wrong" to many people because a crusty old book tells them that it is.

    How does some old guy saying a few words or someone signing a piece of paper really change anything? How does some other couple having or not having sex half way round the world 'result in welfare of all' if they had a ceremony first?

    Was the rape and force-marriage described in the bible OK because god supposedly commanded it and yet a couple who love each other and are committed to each other but unmarried commit a sin?

    What an utterly stupid and morally bankrupt god you follow. I can't even stand to listen to idiots like you, you are so incredibly stupid and irritating with your incessant spouting of nonsense.

  • sunny23
    sunny23

    I think a more complete answer would be to say that:

    Faith as defined in my earlier post, can be a vice OR a virtue in #1 depending on who the trust is put upon and quality of evidence used.

    Example: Faith #1 aka "trust" in many new people on little/no evidence can more readily be a vice than faith in your best friend you have known a long time and have demonstrated evidence for trusting in them for something (which can more readily be a virtue)

    Faith as defined in my earlier post can be a vice OR a virtue in #2 depending on which doctrines are believed and how closely they follow or support adherance to universally accepted morals (ie no murder/rape/etc)

    Example: Faith #2 aka "belief" in a God or scripture that tells you to kill those who don't believe what you do can more readily be a vice than belief in a God or scripture that tells you to love everyone including your enemies and provide for the sick/poor (which can more readily be a virtue).

    Thus Faith in both definitions can be a vice or a virtue dependent upon where it is placed and to what degree one acts upon it.

  • Pinku
    Pinku

    Simon,

    I did not bring up that subject! Viviane asked: " Is sex out of wedlock wrong?" I showed he knows the answer putting another question. You would note that I did not answer question " Is sex out of wedlock wrong?

    Your passionate reaction too shows that you too, as everyone else, know what is right and and wrong. This presupposes that God does'nt have to intervene in the affairs of mankind.--Galatians 6:7

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