Faith - Virtue or Vice? (page 3)

donnye

"As a result of many years of research and debate - including over 30 years as a JW and 9 years as a christian - I am convinced there is no god and no supernatural realm of any sort. I am also convinced that the Watchtower organisation to which you belong is a dangerous lying cult.

However if you or anybody else has objective evidence to the contrary I very much want to hear it and have my mind changed. I will follow the evidence wherever it leads. I don't want to be wrong any longer than necessary, do you?"

Thank you for your comments Cofty. I am sorry that you had 39 years of bad experiences as a christian before you became an atheist. What took you so long?

LisaRose

So nature teaches you simple lesson: SPIRITUALITY without religions

Good point Pinku. I had to do some soul searching in giving up my belief in God, as I did not want to give my spirituality, something I worked hard to gain after leaving the Witnesses, but I couldn't pretend a belief I didn't feel. I finally I realized I could feel a deep connection with the beauty of nature and an appreciation for the wonders of the universe and that was my spirituality. Many see a beautiful sunset and are moved to thank God, I see a beautiful sunset and appreciate the wonderful events that took place that ended up with such a thing happening and my being there to appreciate it.

sunny23

donnye, what do you have to offer to this thread on Faith? Offer your own opinions on this topic.

So far it has been said that faith in God specifically:

Is NOT like faith in a friend you might have and can see physically
Comes from fear of death and hope for more
Can make a person misperceive value of life
Causes one to be vulnerable and easily decieved
Shouldn't logically be required for salvation

What are your thoughts to these claims and give supporting reasoning please.

Coded Logic

I don't see how anything in it can be construed to mean that I think faith without proof is a good thing, or that I had such a faith.

-LisaRose

You are attempting to move the goal post. Nobody said that you think "faith without proof" is a good thing. Nor did anyone say that you had such faith. Rather, the critisim of your initial statement was that you were transposing the meaning of "faith" from: believing things without evidence - to: trust. When called out on this you accused people of being "pathetic" and claimed that you said people put faith in God without reason. Which is in direct contradiction to your first statment:

You can have faith in a person, if that person has demonstrated that they are trustworthy . . . Most believers do think there is reason to put faith in God

The OP is not about people who think they have evidential reasons for belief in a God. Rather, it was about people who willfully believe things without evidence and then claim that is a virtue.

Viviane

SPIRITUALITY without religions.

What, specifically, is spirituallity?

Pinku

LisaRose

You never know how much good you are going to attract by saying such a great wisdom (appreciating the good in God and in His nature)--you are going to reap good after good.

Continue your good thinking and good work. You have the support of your great mother Nature and great Father (God)

Viviane

Rather, the critisim of your initial statement was that you were transposing the meaning of "faith" from: believing things without evidence - to: trust.

It means both. I would suggest knowing what you are talking about before declaring someone else wrong. You're still coming across as a know-it-all jackass. That would be fine except you often don't know what you are talking about, kinda like the religious people you criticize.

Pinku

Viviane

Spirituality without religions means acknowledging God as He really is (God is spirit—John 4:24) and spirit of what He intends for us. Religions abused human rights, so did Atheists (in former USSR, China, Cuba …) hence both are two sides of the same coin—abuse of power.

Now spirit of what God intents for us: He never uses messengers or books (if He did, He would not have permitted distortion by the followers of the messenger nor corruption of the books), but has left the teaching to the mother Nature. For example, look at the fruit-bearing trees! You can learn great principles like—SILENTLY WORKING, COMPLETELY INVOLVED FOR THE CAUSE OF ALTRUISM AND BEAUTY (expressed in appealing colors and shape of the fruits) …. and many more. So nature teaches you simple lesson: SPIRITUALITY without religions (which means TAKING DELIGHT IN THE WELFARE OF ALL BEINGS--Mark 10:18; Mathew 5:44-48)

Viviane

Spirituality without religions means acknowledging God as he really is (God is spirit—John 4:24) and spirit of what He intends for us. Religions abused human rights, so did Atheists (in former USSR, China, Cuba …) hence both are two sides of the same coin—abuse of power.

OK, what about people that claim to be spiritual yet believe something completely different about God than you? What is spirit made of? How can we objectively know what God wants using a book that has numerous errors and contradictions?

Until you answer these basic questions, you are speaking in meaningless platitudes.

Pinku

Viviane

What about people that claim to be spiritual yet believe something completely different about God than you?

Everyone knows what is right and wrong, and they are FREE to make any choice, BUT NOT FREE to choose the results which are predetermined. The discreet one will learn from other’s experiences. The indiscreet one will learn from his own experience, paying a price.

What is spirit made of?

A clock is not meant to know how it is made of, so is our mind. We only need to unfold our inner qualities—Mathew 7:12

How can we objectively know what God wants using a book that has numerous errors and contradictions?

Bible has been corrupted, says Bible itself. (Jeremiah 7:22; 8:8; compare Acts 20:28-30) Will God permit corruption of the Bible if it really did belong to Him.

Hence look at Nature. God has kept lessons for us in it.—Romans 1:20 (Bible is corrupted, yet some eternal truth contains in it intact such as Mathew 5:44-48; 7:12; James 2:8 ..... which are the same lessons found in the nature too, hence we can quote such verses)

Faith - Virtue or Vice?

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