Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Coded Logic

  You can have faith in a person, if that person has demonstrated that they are trustworthy.

  - LisaRose

  That's not faith. That's trust. While the word "faith" is a somewhat nebulous term and can have multiple meanings (sometimes synonymous with words like conviction, hope, etc.) it is being used in a VERY percise manner for this thread. We are talking about the sort of faith mentioned in Hebrews 11:1. Specifically, believing something without having evidence or contrary to the evidence simply because you want it to be true. Having "faith" in a person because they have demonstrated their trustworthiness in the past is no equvical.

  It would be like if this thread were asking if we should preserve the natural habbitat of wild cranes because they are going extinct and then someone saying that, "cranes are great because they help unload cargo off of ships." Clearly these are two entirely different things.
• 

  LisaRose

  I know that the OP was about faith in God, I was going somewhere with my comments, it appears that no one bothered to read the rest of it before they started criticizing.

  For the record, I am not a believer. Got that? In answer to the OP, faith without cause is a vice.

  The point I was trying to make was that people put faith in God without having any reason for doing so. You would not have faith in a person unless they had demonstrated that it was justified, but people put faith in God without justification because they need to believe for emotional reasons, then try to pretend they have logical reasons for it.

  I guess no actual believers dared to post on this thread so you had to stretch to have someone to pick on, how pathetic.
• 

  cofty

  LisaRose - I understood that, I wasn't picking on you. I was just commneting on what always happens when rational people question the value of faith.
• 

  donnye

  nicolaou "I'm not asking this of newcomers so much but I do scratch my head at some posters who've been around here for a decade or more and have not budged one smegging inch from their starting position."

  You've been discussing the subject of faith for the last decade on this platform? What's prompted you to bring it up again today? Is the purpose of jehovahs-witness.net to budge or change people's opinion's? Is that your purpose?

  I am intrigued.
• 

  cofty

  Is the purpose of jehovahs-witness.net to budge or change people's opinion's?

  Of course it is. Would you prefer it to be a place wher your prejudices were protected from criticism?

  That sort of place would be called a Kingdom Hall
• 

  donnye

  So cofty is on this platform to get his or her opinions changed? Is that what you mean?
• 

  cofty

  So cofty is on this platform to get his or her opinions changed? Is that what you mean? - donnye

  As a result of many years of research and debate - including over 30 years as a JW and 9 years as a christian - I am convinced there is no god and no supernatural realm of any sort. I am also convinced that the Watchtower organisation to which you belong is a dangerous lying cult.

  However if you or anybody else has objective evidence to the contrary I very much want to hear it and have my mind changed. I will follow the evidence wherever it leads. I don't want to be wrong any longer than necessary, do you?
• 

  Coded Logic

  The point I was trying to make was that people put faith in God without having any reason for doing so.

  -LisaRose

  No, that's NOT the point you made. In fact, you made the COMPLETE OPPOSITE point. Please do not call other people "pathetic" when it is you who is failing to articulate your thoughts. You don't get to say one thing in your comments, and then when you get called on, turn around and claim you were saying the complete opposite. That sort of underhandedness is for GB, not for this forum.

  And no one is picking on you. Pointing out a valid logical flaw in your reasoning is NOT a personal attack. However, calling people "pathetic" is. Take a step back and consider your position - the only person acting like a bully here is you.
• 

  LisaRose

  Please read this paragraph from my first post:

  Most believers do think there is reason to put faith in God, that's the problem, they are basing their faith on words in a book, when there is no evidence that the things in that book happened, or that the person in that book actually exists. I think most people choose to believe as a way of coping with their present life and to make them feel more comfortable about the prospect of dying. That is why they will not question their beliefs, because it is based on emotional needs, not logic. No proof or logical reasoning with work with them, because their belief is not based on logic. It is only when a person is willing to look at the facts and be open to where that takes them that they can get rid of the God delusion.

  How is that the opposite of my first post? I don't see how anything in it can be construed to mean that I think faith without proof is a good thing, or that I had such a faith.
• 

  Pinku

  nicolaou

  Excellent, I agree with you 100%. I believe in God, who does not intervene in the affairs of mankind. Because man has been given the ability to become gods (to progress indefinitely) or demons (to lead lives of destruction). He never uses messengers or books (if He did, He would not have permitted distortion by the followers of the messenger nor corruption of the books), but has left the teaching to the mother Nature. For example, look at the fruit-bearing trees! You can learn great principles like—SILENTLY WORKING, COMPLETELY INVOLVED FOR THE CAUSE OF ALTRUISM AND BEAUTY (expressed in appealing colors and shape of the fruits) …. and many more. So nature teaches you simple lesson: SPIRITUALITY without religions.