My JW mom is now willing to "listen" to our side...Need advice pls
Joe, we KNOW many will NEVER be resurrected, according to Jesus' words. Only many who never had the chance to learn @ God.
The 'overlapping generations' IS nonsense- but is stupidity, not evil.
Spectre, who DOESN'T make mistakes understanding many of the prophecies?
1914 iS pin-pointed in Daniel- but their TAKE on what it means is just guessing.
Oh... sloppy... I had a conversation with an elder on Romans 6. He focused on verse 23. I asked him to show me where, in the chapter, Paul spoke of a physical death and not the death of sin at the point of baptism. He couldn't.
Ask her why, in the WDTBRT book James 1:13 is about God's will on page 10 and man's will on page 29.
How about... why, on the same page of the WDTBRT book, there's a sentence that says God is NEVER the source of wickedness you see in the world? Can that be reconciled with Proverbs 16:4, Isaiah 45:7, Exodus 4:11, Eccl 7:14, Amos 3:6, 1 Peter 4:19 and the point of the story of the potter as told in the Old and New Testaments? Go to Romans 9:10-25 and focus on verses 18-23. What do we do with THAT truth? Was Jeremiah lamenting Satan's activities in Lamentations (look at chapter 2) or the hurt caused by the Lord's wrath?
Who brought the Great Flood?... (I suspect she'll tell you THOSE people were evil!)
Who killed the 70,000? Were THEY all evil? Did those events "happen" or were those events "caused" by the Lord?
If you set the trigger correctly, you'll hear about "the churches" saying "a death is God's will"... ask what the WTS does with James 4:15 and to ask if "this or that" is scripturally defined. If it is, I want to avoid that activity.
IF you can have a conversation about Romans 6, I find that the best line of reasoning is this:
If our sins are acquitted at physical death, then every person, every... single... person..., up to this moment in time that has died is acquitted of their sins. That means that the blood of the Christ has NO EFFECT on ANYONE that has died in the past. Not the apostles. Not the disciples. Not faithful Israelites that died. Not faithful Christians since then, but ONLY operates toward those CURRENTLY living.
Obviously, this makes no sense. It does not square with what Paul wrote eariler in Romans:
God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness, because God in his forbearance was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past. - Rom. 3:25
It stands to reason that people who died before Christ came along did NOT have their sins acquitted at death, otherwise, there would be NO NEED for forgiveness of those sins. Thus, the understanding that the Society has CANNOT be correct.
This point was actually driven home to me by a very humble person I met in the field ministry one day. She said, basically, 'If our sins are acquitted at death, then why in the world did Christ die for us to begin with?'
Dochouse Romans 6 is just the beginning which goes to that there is a resurrection of judgement as well as life. The scroll of life that you learned at your recent convention if you have gone is not new scrolls as they kept saying but the names of those who gained life.
LQ- death was the ONLY penalty God established. Only Churchianity goes WAY beyond that.
The heart is what Christ will judge- and those he deems worthy of getting the chance to learn, he will resurrect.
My views pretty much go along with what Spectre wrote though I will add this : The " generation " teaching about the " time of the end " the WT Society has TOTALLY botched that up and deceived Jehovah's Witnesses on purpose to keep the alleged " time of the end " or " last days " thing going.
If you show your mom Matthew 24 : 34 which says, " Truly I say to you that this GENERATION will by no means pass away until all these things occur. " So the WT Society USED to say the generation that saw 1914 would not pass away before the end or Armageddon came- but the WT leaders saw that when that generation aged to over 100 years old and most all of them had died- they had to MANIPULATE the scripture at Matthew 24 : 34 to keep JW's from bailing out and giving up on their failed expectations.
So NOW the current teaching is that an " overlapping generation " that came AFTER the 1914 generation will be alive when Armageddon happens and that 2 overlapping generations will be alive when Armageddon happens. So if that's the case ask your mom - shouldn't Matthew 24 : 34 read , " Truly I say to you THESE GENERATIONS ( plural ) will by no means pass away until all these things occur ? " Hopefully your mom will see the WT Society has changed or manipulated what Jesus words really were !
Another thing Pink - look up for yourself in any Websters or any other dictionary and you will find that the typical length of a generation is 20 to 30 years- not 70 to 80 years ! So in actuality the WT Society changes the meanings of words as well to accomodate their manipulative teachings so as to keep their " end game " of an alleged " Armageddon " still dangling like a carrot to rank & file JW's. So this serves the purpose of keeping JW's controlled by fear of expecting a " Armageddon ". So actual 4 to 5 GENERATIONS of people have lived since 1914 truthfully. So you see how deceiving and messed up WT leaders are ? I feel you should share this with your mom and see how she responds. Hey she asked you to tell her the REAL truth - so tell her the REAL truth about the fake " truth ". Hope this helps you somewhat. Take care we are here as a support to you. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
@DocHouse.... I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. As regards your last statement, John 5:28,20 and Rev 20:12,13 don't align with what you said, so I must respectfully disagree with you. And, yes, I'm very familiar with what the Society teaches about these. I have to go with what the verses actually say instead of what someone interprets them as saying.
Just have your sister quote WT literature only and have Splash's answers to their possible responses on hand:
Summary of Foundational Quotes:1874, 1878, 1914, 1918, 1919, 1925, 1975
(all of which are unsubstantiated biblically - total speculation and opinions of men)
The Watchtower, November 1, 1922, pp.332-337
“Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874?… This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents. Therefore advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom.”
The Watchtower, November 1, 1922, p. 333
“Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable.”
The Watchtower February 1, 1925, p.371
“It is the understanding of the consecrated that the sleeping saints were resurrected in 1878.”
The Time Is At Hand, 1902, p. 101.
“Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced..”
The Watchtower, January 15, 1892, p. 1355
“The date of the close of that ‘battle’ is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874.”
The Watchtower, June 15, 1954, p.370
“Why then, do the nations not realize and accept the approach of the climax of judgment? It is because they have not heeded the world-wide advertizing of Christ's return and his second presence. Since long before World War I Jehovah's witnesses pointed to 1914 as the time for this great event to occur.”
The Watchtower, October 1, 1986, p.14
“The Watchtower has long presented the view that this resurrection of anointed Christians from death commenced in the year 1918.”
Praise Jah for His Judgments! Chap. 38 p. 274 par. 6
It was in 1918 that Jehovah began rewarding 'those fearing his name, the small and the great'-the first of these being the anointed Christians who had died faithful, whom he resurrected and stationed in the heavenly ranks of the 24 elders. (Revelation 11:18)
The Watchtower, The August 1, 1960 p. 462
“When Jesus came to God’s spiritual temple in 1918 for the purpose of judging men, Christendom was rejected.”
The Finished Mystery (SS-7), 1917 ed., p. 485
“Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of ‘Christianity.’”
God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached pp.350
“On inspecting the remnant of his anointed disciples in the year 1919 C.E., the reigning King Jesus Christ did find the appointed slave... faithful and discreet in the feeding of his domestics. Accordingly, he appointed this slave class over all his belongings."
The Watchtower, July 15, 2013, “Who Really is the faithful and discreet slave?” p.22
“In 1919, Jesus selected capable anointed brothers to be his faithful and discreet slave...
Throughout the last days, the anointed brothers who make up the faithful slave have served together at headquarters. In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
Millions Now Living Will Never Die! (book, 1920) pp.89-90
“As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized [...] Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection.”
The Watchtower, February 15, 1995, p. 19 par. 6 "Have No Fear, Little Flock""Logically, the calling of the little flock would draw to a close when the number was nearing completion, and the evidence is that the general gathering of these specially blessed ones ended in 1935."
The Watchtower, August 15, 1968 p.494 “Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?” WHAT about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam’s creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion.
The Watchtower, August 15, 1968 p.499 “Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?”
“Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975?, and the long-looked-for-thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly....It may involve only a difference in of weeks or months, not years.
LQ, death really IS death.
No 'immortal soul' floating off to heaven hellfire, purgatory, etc.
Simply no longer alive.
Thare WAS no other penalty.
God never told Adam & Eve they would FRY in the day they ate of the foirbidden tree.
Revelation is a symbolic vision in and out of order- likely inspired to keep us thinking and looking- not for a perfect understanding of what's going on.
Sorry you disagree with these most basic FACTS of scripture...