Little Toe writes:
Waiting has contributed to a thread with the aforementioned title, giving sparce details of her religious background.
I am in no position to question her profession of faith, beyond her willingness to contribute to this thread. Are you really able to confirm that she isn't a Christian?
Well I’ll let Waiting answer that with her own words
Now? NEVER will I join another church - I've concluded I don't make good religious church decisions. Otherwise, I prefer the comfort and freedom of being an agnostic - just accepting I don't know everything.
Little Toe writes:
If you want to condemn me for "compromised docrinal standards" then you'd best do two things:
1. Find out what my standards are, because you haven't the foggiest idea what I believe in.
2. Find out what my standards were.
Since you have given an oath to the Free Church then your doctrinal standards are supposed to be the statement of faith contained in the Westminster Standards. But as you seem to reveal that may not be the case. Lets go back to page 5 of this thread and see what you have written.
Little makes this statement in regards to the WCF
Whilst I appreciate the Westminster Confession of Faith (also the Institutes, and Berkhoff's Systematic Theology) I hold it as a subordinate standard to the inspired word, as I imagine you do yourself.
You will not bludgeon me with the Confession, nor any word of man.
Now when you say you “ appreciate the Westminster Confession of Faith “ now is that an affirmation that: (choose one)
1. You do strictly subscribe to the Westminster Standards,
2. You strongly hold to the Westminster standards but have a couple of exceptions.
3. You Loosely Hold to the confession, but have other theological views that may conflict with the Westminster Standards.
4. The Westminster is helpful and you do appreciate the standards but it is not your personal doctrinal standard.
My request is for Little to disclose what exactly what he holds to in relationship to the confession of the faith
Little Toe posted:
You quote Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" and then proceed to sit in judgement.I was using decrement (you complaint was judgment) in regards of the likes of Bona, Plum, RR, just2laws and others. As far as your session goes have you disclosed any of your views that you have shared on this thread with the session. I would like to know what your session would think of some of the remarks on this thread and others by those whom you seem so eager to defend as your brothers and sisters in Christ. Would they make the same assessment as you? Second what would your elders think of your defense of these people and would they agree? From this point on I am going to forward this thread to my church (Providence Orthodox Presbyterian Chapel of Castro Valley, CA: A mission work of First Orthodox Presbyterian Church San Francisco, CA) I am going to get their feed back on this discussion.
You judge, not only others, but also me. So, from what you know of me, do you presume to know more than the two kirk sessions that met with me earlier this year?
(One for baptism and one for going forward to the Lord's table?)
The church I attend is staunch, and in the heart of Presyterianism.
Do you presume to know more than God, who called me?
Little Says:
Faith is, after all, a fruit of the Spirit and hence implies that the one professing faith has been born of the Spirit (1 Cor.12:3).Not too much of a problem here but the point of James 1:18 is still demonstrated even in your own conversion. Yet the church is the primary means to deliver the saving message that regenerates man. The church is the only place that has the proclaimed word of God that is preaching is only found in the church. That is the church not just a building sends forth heralds that bring the gospel in Preaching in the Lord’s Day, it’s Christian education programs, it’s evangelism, it is the church that brings forth the Kerygma of God’s word through preaching primarily and other ordained means. The word can never be separated from the church for the church was born out of the word and subject to the word, just as you cannot separate a parent (word) and child (church) relationship. So when you read the word of God on your own you are whether you like it or not you are still associating yourself with God’s church whether in covenant relationship or not. For it is God’s word that created the church and it is God’s word that exclusively belongs to the church.
Hearing the word does not always involve going to a church building, as I was convicted by reading the word in my own lounge.
Little writes:
Yet you single-mindedly fail to quote Pauls words regarding the continued battle with falled flesh (Rom.7).I did point out that the Christian and only the Christian does have an on going battle with sin. You should go back and reread my previous post. Now as to the fact that I failed to post Romans 7 I truly apologies for that is a biblical truth that I totally rejoice in and it is a truth that all Christians should be grounded in. Romans 7 is a joyful relief from the legalism and false perfectionism of the WT. But my intention was to never to suppress a vital truth such as this for I owe much of my Christian joy to this passage and to charge that I would keep this passage on the down low is just silly and ludicrous.
For all Christian to take to heart you have been free now fight the good fight.
Romans 7
1Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.Little says,
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[1] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.Struggling With Sin
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
You then state that I psychobabble, because I disagree with your dogmatic statement that a Christian will immediately attend church. You seem to believe that the regeneration will make one immediately succumb to the mind of Christ in every aspect of life.He will begin this work in succumb to the mind of Christ in every aspect of life. Not perfectly though but he will begin. You have to take into account 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 you cannot deny this passage.
2 Cor 5:16-17
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!Little Toe goes on to say:
Darn, I stayed in the JW's for six months. Does that mean I wasn't converted???No, not necessarily. You could still be converted but just disobedient. Religions like JW’s or Romanism is no place for the Christian. Those who are converted to Christ in the JW religion have a moral obligation and must leave the Watchtower immediately.
Little says:
You also seem to disagree with my restatement of your archaic faith affirmation,This is the same affirmation that is found in my church and other churches of like mind like the Presbyterian Church of America the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Reformed Presbyterian Church, Reformed Church United States and probably even yours. I’m just being in line with the leadership of my church I think you should do the same. I suggest you should check out your Free Church book of order to see how “archaic” that faith affirmation really is.
Little Toe says:
The problem, as I see it, is that you don't evidence any real-world application of scripture and Theology, nor appear to grasp the key issues of modern-day evangelism. It appears that all your posts are taken out of books, as if that is the be-all and end-all.What do you mean when you say application of scripture and theology? Do you mean an approach of Pragmatism? Please explain. As far as “key issues of modern-day evangelism” go We have been instructed from the scriptures by the church as well as read fellow members of Christ’s church books and articles. How does one know the “key issues of modern-day evangelism? Do they know them intuitively? What’s wrong with Christian book? You are just learning from older and wiser Christians. Do you have a problem with that covenantal aspect of the church and our dependence of one another in learning and growing in the faith?
Little stated:
Whilst still a JW, more than a few years ago and before I became an Elder, a guy from the Free-Church made me stop and think.Anecdotal statements are not an effective means to communicate truthful and propisitional claims. just a thought.
He asked me if I could truly be as bigoted as to think that I had all the answers and that only JW's would be judged aright?
Little Toe said:
You've railroaded your own thread into discussion of the role of the church in Christian life.There are many threads in the Friends folder that that evolve into different topics than the original. Why move this particular one? Is it because you want to suppress something? Why can you be more consistent and call for all threads that develop new topics in your eye to be moved to the appropriate Folder? Could it be that you are falling behind the eight ball in this conversation and your conscience is being convicted about capitulating to worldly standards and being called out in the matter?
This thread should really be moved to "Belief's". I suggest that you ask Simon to move it.
Pragmatism is not the answer.
see you soon Lord willing,
jr
This post is brought to you by books on biblical evangelism from John Piper and J.I. Packer
