Once again you avoid the point with a platitude.
A key reason why some atheists challenge religious beliefs
by defender of truth 193 Replies latest members adult
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FlyingHighNow
The church has broken her spirit. If you asked her if she was happy she'd rapidly paint a smile and tell you she was ...'satisfied'.
It makes me want to cry and rage at the same time.
I feel the same about my oldest sister and my youngest brother and their spouses. They are JWs and take the shunning to the extreme. We haven't talked in the past several years, their choice.
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Apognophos
"This notion that science and religion are at opposite ends of a spectrum is a total canard "
Faith based knowledge is the opposite of evidence based scientific discovery
I didn't phrase that as well as I could have. What I meant is that science is not opposed by religion. Without beating the dead horse of the Galileo incident (where he unnecessarily caused offense to the Pope), I wonder how many actual examples you have where religion stood in the way of science. Even when scientists believe in God and maybe even in the Bible, it doesn't stop them from examining their area of interest in the sciences. It's entirely illogical to suggest that because someone believes that God created man, they can't research a cure to cancer or figure out how to get to the moon. As I said before, people who are smart are often curious, and curious people do science. It's as simple as that.
People are quite good at compartmentalizing. In fact it's pretty rare to meet someone with a truly unified, rational worldview. Even the most rational posters on this forum are guilty of statements of faith without realizing it, though I choose not to point this out because I think it's perfectly fine for people to occasionally cut themselves some slack and believe something nice that isn't supported by facts or logic.
Some scientists, like Tesla, have derived comfort from their strong religious beliefs while also revolutionizing our view of some area of science. And some non-religious scientists have been held back in their understanding of the universe by a refusal to accept that the universe might not work the way they want it to personally (like Einstein with quantum physics). If you are angry at religion for wasting much of mankind's energy then you are angry at an urban legend, a false cause-and-effect.
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FlyingHighNow
Once again you avoid the point with a platitude.
I will return your statement and say likewise. You either missed the point or you disagree because it's me who said it: Happiness is relative.
If you feel happy, you feel happy.
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Qcmbr
I think something that catches some religious thinkers out is that science is not about absolutes. It is about probablilty calculations. Scientists know that when they propose a model to explain some phenomenon it is just that and it is open for review, change and replacement. As an atheist (not with my anti theist hat on) I no longer have the luxury of assuming what I've been told is the truth and will be forever and forever. There are no gods waiting to answer all the questions. For many topics that cross over with religion (creation of earth, how did species occur, what are morals, how to live a happy life, what is love etc...) the balance of probabilities is against there being a human conceived god such as Ra as the prime mover and the observed evidence points to a very mechanical and measurable system with simple chemistry, physics and chaos mathematics describing why the world is as we see it.
Science isn't presenting comforting answers to what happens when we die or what is a meaningful purpose for our existence and as yet doesnt have enough data or the tools to approach those questions. Everything is relative and everything is a probability. Truth is as fluid as the world it tries to define.
When I attack faith based religious belief it is with the implicit understanding that I offer no comfort or definitive answers and that most of what I know is based upon a minute data sample but one that shows startling uniformity and repeatable experience. I find mysef hoping that mankind can stop betting on no hope horses and start investing in the areas where real progress is being made.
...and if any god bothers to show up sometime then..all change!
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MadGiant
Don't know when the discussion turned from opinions to religion but. The problem with religion (one of them anyway) is that concepts of god(s) and varieties (religions), have changed greatly over the millennia, in the sense that they have been developed within cultural contexts, with odd details and interpretations based chiefly on race, gender, language and environment.
Is religion the problem? History shows that the religious teachings and traditions of men have contributed to, or in some cases even caused, humanity’s problems. For centuries, churches have initiated or endorsed wars, influenced civil governments and their laws, even forced people into religious compliance.
Religion will only burden your mind with a hefty load of false notions. Religion is the off-switch of the human intellect. Leave the mythology behind, and learn to think for yourself. Your mind is a better instrument of growth than any religious teachings.
Life is a cruel, sadistic torment in countless places around the globe. This fact should create more doubts than it does about whether or not there is any good god in charge of everything and whether or not religion has any value in the first place.
Religion will teach you to fear being different, to fear standing up for yourself, and to fear being an independent thinker. It will eat at your self-trust by explaining why you’re unable to successfully manage life on your own terms: You are unworthy. You’re a sinner. You’re unclean. You belong to a lesser caste. You're not perfect, you aren't enlightened. Of course the answer is always the same, submit to the will of an external authority.
Believe that you’re inadequate. Give away your power. Follow their rules and procedures. Live in fear for the rest of your life, and hope it will all turn out okay in the end.
Quit trying to comfort yourself by swallowing religious rubbish. If you genuinely need something to believe in, then believe in your own potential. Put your trust in your own intellect. Stop giving away your power.
Respectfully,
Ismael
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DJS
MG,
Well stated. Thank you.
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FlyingHighNow
I think something that catches some religious thinkers out is that science is not about absolutes.
Maybe some. I'd like to know when it became this idea that religious people don't appreciate science though. I know that growing up, my mom took us to the Episcopal Church. My dad was a scientist/oceanographer who was Native American in his spiritual beliefs. We were taught science and Evolution in school and at home. My parents made sure we had a good library of books about every branch of science. Dad did things like build rockets and we launched them together. He built elaborate kites and we flew them. He took us into nature and he used it all to talk about science. All of us kids were like him in that we excelled in science courses in school. My parents never felt that science and God had to be separate. I realize some very fundamentalist types may be at odds with evolution, but the big churches like the Catholic church and the Anglican church are not. I look at evolution as not being absolute. Knowledge of it is formative. I feel there is much to be filled in on it by science, so much that is still not understood. My dad was a non Christian theist, but he would make arguements for evolution all day and night. I remember him emphatically telling my sister, "I've seen the fossils!"
For me, I don't think of religion in absolutes either. I am bothered by many of the same negative things you are. On the other hand, I am not extremist when it comes to religion.
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FlyingHighNow
Religion will teach you to fear being different, to fear standing up for yourself, and to fear being an independent thinker.
You are over generalizing. This is true of some religion. It is not true of all religion.
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MadGiant
"Maybe some. I'd like to know when it became this idea that religious people don't appreciate science though. I know that growing up, my mom took us to the Episcopal Church. My dad was a scientist/oceanographer..."
When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
Some people think there's a war between science and god(s) or invisible spirits. Science is the systematic study of the world through observation and experiment.
Science doesn't give ( ) about religion(s), because ( ) are not measurable units and therefore have no place in research. As soon as it's possible to detect ( )'s, science will quantize perdition and number all the levels of ( ), if any. Until then, science doesn't care.
"I look at evolution as not being absolute." -
Sorry ma'am, but that's call "personal incredulity". You found something difficult to understand, or are unaware of how it works, you made out like it's probably not true. And it's a fallacy.
Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. This means that organisms change over time.
In humans for example, it's impossible to locate the actual point of change. That's how evolution works,: It's gradual. People tend to think evolution hops from one stage to another in giant leaps, "March of Progress" style.
But the process is actually far less dramatic. Our journey from blobs of primordial slime to people was long and slow, and even the changes that actually include monkey-human hybrid features are decidedly undramatic because they differ so little from the stages we already know about.
These hybrid discoveries are known as transition fossils, and more are discovered all the time. And the human evolutionary tree (for example) features plenty of transitions.
Ismael