convinced 95% of all active jw's don't have a clue as to where 1914 originates

by goingthruthemotions 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JT speaks-out
    JT speaks-out

    "GTTM: She said " i believe were in end times and to serve Jehovah and have a relationship with Jesus""

    Hang on, I thought she'd just said "no there were never any predictions", so how can she believe it's "end times". They're so programmed that they don't even seem to be aware of contradictions.

    "Focus: It also marked not the beginning, but "the very end of the time of troubles"."

    What? So Armageddon's been and gone, and noone's noticed? I still don't get the whole 100 years of god's kingdom rule thing. Is the start of god's kingdom and the "great tribulation supposed to happen at the same time? I used to be able to parrot most of the prophecy bs when I was a kid.

    "OneEyedJoe: The current teaching of how they get to 1914 is somewhat more known, but still only by a small minority."

    Do they actually explain how they calculate the seven times crap? I seem to remember being able to do the maths for some of the prophecies when I was a kid, but not any of how it was supposed to work.

    "ADCMS: 99.9% of JWs also are completely oblivious to the fact that the 1914 date and its chronology wasn't even invented by Russell. At best, he plagarized the entire concept from the Adventists and William Miller and stapled the WT label on it."

    I don't think I ever knew that, but it's so like them to do something like that.

    "BluesBrother: Their massaging of an embarrasing start to their organization reminds one of Winston Smith's job in "1984". He had to look back at old newspapers on record and change them to say what The State was now promoting as "truth""

    I've just finished reading "1984" and all the way through the book I kept being reminded of the jw cult.
  • JT speaks-out
    JT speaks-out

    I think the site did something to the layout of my post...oh well.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    I think there is no doubt whatsoever that some of the current GB have strong doubts about it, and would like to ditch the whole thing, hook line and sinker, ascribing it to the PRE-1919, pre faithful and discreet slave class appointment Egyptology mysticism of C T Russell.

    Paster Russell was demoted at the 2012 AGM remember. This is not coincidence. It's a strategic demotion laying the ground-work for major doctrinal 'new light' in years to come.

    The GB are not stupid. They are highly intelligent and shrewd men (albeit misled and intellectually dishonest). They are planning ahead strategically long-term on a number of fronts.

  • Vanderhoven7


  • AndDontCallMeShirley

    The GB are not stupid. They are highly intelligent and shrewd men

    It's probably more accurate to say they hire highly intelligent and shrewd people outside of the WT Organization to do their thinking and strategizing for them.

    I don't ever look at Anthony Morris III or Stephen Lett and say to myself, "now there's a highly intelligent man".

  • OneEyedJoe


    The (absurd) math to get to 1914 is in the current daniel book (and i think the bible teach book too), I believe. Basically it goes like this:

    the 7 times fortold the 7 years of Nebuchadnezzar's maddness, but it was to also have a second fulfillment

    To calculate the time of the second fulfillment, they take the 2520 days (since apparently they used 360 day lunar years at the time, and because there's some random stuff in revelation about 3 1/2 times being 1260 days) and instead make it 2520 years. The basis for this is two random scriptures that cite the concept of a 'day for a year.' These scriptures have nothing prophetic in them, and it's just a complete leap to make the math work.

    So, counting 2520 years from 607 (the contrived date of the destruction of jerusalem, which is wrong) you get to 1914.

    Now for the problems with their accounting:

    First off, the second fulfillment is assumed because daniel was a bit grandious with his "prophecy" (which was really an accounting of historical events to the person that wrote the book) and said that the time of the nations trampling on Jehovah's kingdom would end at the end of the 7 times (or something like that). Since that didn't happen (and since there's no way anyone in the bible could've gotten something wrong) there has to be a second fulfillment that actually happens like daniel said.

    Next, there's no basis for the assumption that the 7 times should mean 360 day years just because of some random thing in revelation. If the prophecy was really for us, as they assert, wouldn't god have used a measurement for time that we recognize today? Especially considering it's more accurate? He is the "great timekeeper" afterall, so did he not know how long a year was when the bible was written?

    So we've already got two questionable leaps, but now we've got 2520 days. So lets pick a random scripture that says "a day for a year" and use it as justification for the math that we've already put the end date on! Did daniel put a footnote in the origonal text pointing the reader to Numbers and Ezekiel to figure out how to interpret it? Why couldn't we use the scripture that a thousand years is as a day for Jehovah? That would put the end somewhere in the year 2519393 AD.

    Continuing on, we've now got 2520 years. What is the length of these years? Well to get to 2520 we had to assume a 360 day year, so where does that put us? We've now got 907200 days, or just shy of 2484 365.25 day years. So, even assuming the date of 607 is accurate (it isn't) that'd put us at the end of 1877 or beginning of 1878 depending on what time of the year in 607 you start counting (BTW, does 1878 ring any bells? It wouldn't for a JW, but we know it was a "marked year" for CTR! He must've been just a hair better at math than the current GB) The only way to get to 1914 is to assume that god meant 360 day years for the 7 times, and 365.25 day years when he said "a day for a year." It's like god didn't want anyone to figure out what he meant!

  • AndDontCallMeShirley

    To calculate the time of the second fulfillment, they take the 2520 days (since apparently they used 360 day lunar years at the time

    WT uses the solar calendar and the ancients used the lunar calendar (365 days vs. 360 days respectively). In WT methodology, it is mixing two completely different systems to get the end result, like mixing metric with standard for math. Essentially, 2 meters plus 3 feet = 5 feet. Sorry, no dice!

    No matter how you figure it (lunar or solar) you cannot draw a straight line from 607-1914. Mixing the two calendar year calculations makes it even more impossible.

  • Focus


    7 times

    Really, that was very inadequate.

    The late Brother Farkel explained it far better, Here it is, with minor emendations by Brother Focus:

    "1914" A.D. is the single most important date in our doctrine, and is the result of using 607 B.C as an "anchor date", using the book of Daniel, Chapter 4, as proof. This is based upon the following, simple reasoning: 7 "times" doesn't mean "7 times". It means "7 years". But, "7 years" doesn't really mean 7 "years", either. It means "7 years of days" - obvious. But, the "days" in "years of days" doesn't really mean "years of days, in which the days actually mean "days", but means "years of days, in which the "days" actually mean "years". Therefore, it is easy for even a worldly fool to see that "7 times" REALLY means "7 years" but which really means "7 years of days", but which then really means "7 years of days which aren't really days, but years", or simply stated "7 years of days of which days are really years". To put it even so a child can understand it, it means that the "times" aren't "times" at all, but are "years", which aren't "years" at all, but are "years of days", which aren't "days" at all, but are "years" AFTER all, even though they were originally CALLED "times"! Got all that? There's more. Strangely, however, for all of this to work, this fulfillment, based upon an ANCIENT text, still requires the use of the ANCIENT calendar for the MODERN fulfillment to work out to 1914. Therefore, ancient text + ancient calendar = modern date in modern calendar. When doing your calculations, don't forget that there is no "zero year" from B.C to A.D. someone entirely unconnected with God's spirit-breathed organization forgot that and was quite embarrassed about it. Lastly, the book of Daniel was prophesied to remain "sealed" until the "last days", which, as we know, began in 1914, according to the simple reasoning just presented. So, the person had to figure out a way to, somehow "unseal" Daniel before it was prophesied that Daniel WOULD be "unsealed" so he could then put forth a prophecy which pointed to exactly when Daniel WAS to be "unsealed", namely at the start of the "last days", in 1914. He, therefore, successfully used a "sealed" book to calculate the exact date it was to be "unsealed", which at that time it was officially, "unsealed", but Russell "unsealed" it before that, because he wanted to know beforehand when it WOULD be "unsealed", because only THEN would he know when the "last days" were to start, which was, of course, when Daniel actually WAS to be "unsealed". It is obvious. So, why argue about it or waste your precious time better spent kingdom-proclaiming on looking into it further? Here, in Jehovah’s ark-like organization, it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization, like Bro. Farkel and Z.O. Focus, who are assigned to that very thing."



    ("7 times 7 times 7 times" Class)

  • steve2

    Creating modern-day fulfillment of prophecies based on ancient Biblical passages are matters of Interpretive Exertion (i.e., come hell or high water, these Scriptures MUST fit with my view of modern times) and dumb faith.

    Oh, and if you're in a position of power, Severe Consequences for anyone disagreeing with your interpretation.

    There you have it: the 3 magic ingredients:

    1. Interpretive Exertion + 2. Dumb faith + 3. Severe consequences = Jehovah's Witnesses (but also any end-times cult).

  • baldeagle


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