Question for Atheists.. Did you gain a Greater Sense of Morality and Happiness?

by objectivetruth 70 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • objectivetruth
    objectivetruth

    OneEyedJoe - You make Valid Points. I wish that I had a better grasp on Science, but I admit that I'm clueless regarding Science. - I appreciate it's Rigidity though, and if all would attend "Sunday Science" as opposed to "Sunday Church" the world would be a Much Better place.

    I also appreciate your point, regarding "Evidence" of God.. God has been Silent, over the Past 2,000 Years, and while I have a View Point on the reason for this, I will leave it alone.

    However it seems to me that if Religions taught Love,Forgiveness,Equality & Righteousness the Situation would be much Different.

    Let me ask you Joe.. What is your View Point on Prophecy? Do you categorize fulfillment of Prophecy as a Unknown, or do you disagree that any Prophecy has ever been fulfilled ('m not talking about 1914 either = ). I know that this too is a Heavy question, but I'd like to know your General View on Prophecy.

    Thanks

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    OT, my viewpoint on prophecy is a combination of a few explanations. You say you're not talking about 1914, but it's actually a very good example. The last thing that held me in the truth was CTR's pointing to 1914 for many years, and then it was when WWI broke out. Then, one day I asked myself, if 1975 saw the start of WWIII, would it be an anchor date that we'd point at to prove that JWs are correct? Looking at it that way, I then saw the 1914 prediction for what it was - a lucky guess (not even that lucky, since they missed the month...)

    I think the bible's prophesy (and indeed all prophesy) can be explained by one or more of the following:

    1. Lucky/educated guess.

    2. Overly Vague or hedging. (it's always a red flag when the prophesy is only fully understood after it's fulfilment). A good example of this would be most of the stuff in Daniel, especially the JW's favorite of the gold/silver/coper/iron/clay statue. Daniel predicted that one power would fall and give rise to another, then god would end all of it. The only part that's fulfilled is that world powers change over time - what a prophesy! This is how modern-day psychics operate, it shouldn't surprise us that this isn't a new con. This also explains litterally everything that people attribute to nostradomus, who was likely just writing satire disguised as prophesy to avoid being killed for daring to speak out against the government.

    3. Post-fulfilment writing. I.e. the prophesy is written after the event it 'predicts.' Daniel's prediction of cyrus' overthrow of babylon likely falls in this category. This prophesy was a difficult one to get past as I stuggled with my athiesm, until I did a little research. It took a while to get past my JW programming, as they always say that experts claim it was written after the fact because of it's accuracy...in reality experts say it was written after the fact because it probably was, and that conclusion has the nice side effect of explaining it's accuracy. Being as the bible was written in a time when most people couldn't read or write, this wouldn't be difficult to pull off. All it would've taken is one "expert" religious leader to write it in there, and tell everyone it had always been there.

    4. Fabricating events to fit prophesy. This is how I would explain many of the prophesies concerning jesus (notably, casting lots over his garments when he was killed). How would the bible writers even have known that? Were they buddy-buddy with the roman gaurds that killed thier savior? It seems likely that (if jesus was actually a real person) the accounts written about him were massaged to fit prophesy.

    5. Self fullfilling prophesy. I'm not convinced Jesus was a real guy, but if he was, I suspect that he was an oppurtunist that realized that people were looking for the messiah and the timing was right so he jumped in to fill the role. He also likely had a good knowledge of bible prophesy that allowed him to maneuver things so that he could claim he was the fullfillment.

    Having said that, assuming you're a christian, how would you explain the fullfiled prophesies of other religions? It can be enlightening to examine prophesies that other people subscribe to (that you don't) as a way of objectively re-examining the ones you hold dear.

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    Some additional thoughts that I came up with right after hitting "submit"

    Since we know that the bible is not complete (i.e. the OT references many other texts that are not included, and the council of nicea added and removed sections) Is there any compelling evidence that all the religious prophesy that came out of early judiasm/christianity were fulfilled? It seems completely plausible that many prophecies were not, and were therefore removed. If that's the case, would it not then be reasonable to conclude that many of the fullfilled prophesies were just the lucky subset of all prophecy?

    Since there is no biblical prophesy (aside from a few covered in point 2 in my first post) that has been verifiably fulfilled in the last 1900 years. Since all the prophesy in the bible is either still waiting for fulfillment, or it was fulfilled when the bible was still very much a living document, I find no reason to base my life on it.

  • objectivetruth
    objectivetruth

    There was a Point in my Studies, that I viewed the Old Testament as Reliable and the New Testament, as Fallible.. However then I came to a Realization.. The Christians have Manipulated the New Testament, in order to Support their Doctrines, and the Jews have Manipulated the Old Testament, to Support their Doctrines.

    The council of Nicea, is a whole other story.. WHO KNOWS what all they Did to Hide & Destroy texts.

    I have to come to another realization though.. When ever something is Widely Discredited, spoken of Distrustfully, Despised, hidden.. This is where Truth can be Found.

    The Book of Enoch, The Epic of Gilgamesh,Plato's Writings, The first & Second books of Adam & Eve, all contain Far Fetched fantasy like stories.. But when you begin to Piece things together a Different story Develops.

    Like the Bible, there is always Lies mixed in With Truth, but when you allow Certain Principles, such as Love to Guide your Path, then things Become Clearer.

    There are 2 Quotes that Express my view :

    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." - Nietzsche

    Hebrews 4:12 " For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires."

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    The book of Enoch is amazing!

    I had read in the book of Genesis through hebrew interlinear and noting many words and phrases that are cut out in all english translations. I noticed that it's because the translators are assuming what the message was and not wanting it to sound confusing. But what they did in a sense is comparable to taking all the symbolism in the book of revelation and translating it to a literal story with all real world literal events that has absolutely nothing symbolic.

    When I had done that though, reading the book of Genesis and seeing a very clear and consistant alternate version that is all symbolic and not literal, it could have been coincidence. Then I read about the creation in the book of Enoch and the levels of heaven and it aligned with the symbolic explanation from Genesis.

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    I'm not sure if I completely follow your point and understand what you're getting at with the quotes, but if I'm reading this correctly you'd be the first person that I've ever known of who embraced the non-cannon biblical texts and still left with an appreciation for the judeo/christian god.

    As for this:

    "I have to come to another realization though.. When ever something is Widely Discredited, spoken of Distrustfully, Despised, hidden.. This is where Truth can be Found."

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree...truth is not treated the same way universally. Sometimes it's embraced, sometimes it is, as you say despised and hidden. I think to discover the truth you have to examine things objectively regardless of whether they're embraced (the sun is the center of the solar system) or despised (hey that last one still works if you go back in time a little!).

    Basically i became comfortable with my athiesm at the time when I noticed an inescapable trend. Anytime I looked into some dark shadow where god might be hiding, or some "proof" that the bible was from god, I found significant evidence either discrediting it, or casting strong doubts. At that point I decided it wasn't worth my time to keep looking.

    Back to your origonal question, I definitely became a better person when I allowed myself to ignore the bible completely. I now can treat gays as if they're normal people! I always tried to, but there was the nagging inhibition that made me feel like a hypocrit. I can now see all people as just people, instead of seeing them as somehow less than me because they haven't bought into the BS.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    objectivetruth: I wish that I had a better grasp on Science, but I admit that I'm clueless regarding Science. - I appreciate it's Rigidity though

    Science is a way of knowing. It is a way of asking questions and seeking to find objectively verifiable answers. How is that rigid?

    You might like this thread I started a while ago:

    The Philosophy of Science

  • objectivetruth
    objectivetruth

    Oubliette - I did not use the word "Rigidity" to Ascribe anything Negative to Science, rather a Positive Thing.

    Stiffness, the property of a solid body to resist deformation, which is sometimes referred to as rigidity.

    I'll read your Post. Thanks

  • objectivetruth
    objectivetruth

    EOM - Here are a few thoughts on the Book of Enoch.

    • Some Claim that Enoch was written Before Genesis, or any other OT Book.
    • The Bible teaches that "Enoch was taken up, and not to be found anymore"
    • Some Claim that when Enoch was taken up, he was permitted to Write The Book, for Men's Instruction.

    Consider these Verses in Enoch 69:8-11 "

    And the name of the fourth is Penemue; this one showed the sons of men the bitter and the sweet and showed them all the secrets of their wisdom. He taught men the art of writing with ink and paper, and through this many have gone astray, from eternity to eternity, and to this day. For men were not created for this, that they should confirm their faith like this, with pen and ink. For men were created no differently from the Angels, so that they might remain righteous and pure, and death, which destroys everything, would not have touched them; but through this knowledge of theirs they are being destroyed and through this power death consumes them. - I've Considered, whether or not "The bitter and the sweet" is Referencing "Good & Evil".

    Without "Ink & Paper" we would not have Religion, or the Bible as we know it Today.

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    Can a person follow the sermon on the mount and still be a an athiest... Yes. (Athiests for Jesus comes to mind)

    Can a person follow the ten commandments and be an atheist? NO No No. The first 4 laws are about the deity.

    Without religious texts would we all be athiests? Of course not! Most of the religions in this world (by numbers of religions, not followers) have little to any written text and are eith spritist or Henotheistic. (Some are montheist)

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