I never realized that Hitler's persecution of the Witnesses was worse than that of the Jews

by ThomasCovenant 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • kaik
    kaik

    I would also add, that some JWs were used as unpaid servants for high ranking nazis. In Protectorate Bohemia 15 of them were employed at the court of the widow Lina Heydrich at her chateau outside Prague here:

    http://www.panenskebrezany.cz/Gallery/content/Foto/Dolni%20zamek/DZ05.jpg

    Reinhard Heydrich was mastermind behind holocaust and called a butcher of Prague. He oversee conference to deal with a final solution of Jews in occupied Europe and fate of Slavs. He was assassinated in 1942 in Prague. Lina lived as widow here surrounded by SS men bodyguards and 15 JWs of German and Dutch nationality. They were her servant running daily chores until the collapse of the Nazi regime. All of them survived. I wonder how they felt to provide services for a monster that by will sent millions of people into extermination camps. Did they feel any guilt? I wonder what was their postwar fate.

  • prologos
    prologos

    Kalk you mentioned the 88% death rate of the jewish population of Chekoslovakia. of course Auschwith was not too far away. I read the book and saw th documentary of the two smart jewish inmates that engineered their escape from There, walked back to their hometown, and alerted the world community to what went on, and kept going on.

    On the JW vein, I remember reading about the slave-labour The Germans used to build anti tank fortifications on the eastern fron, and they executed the non-compliant JWs, until thye saw the futility and perhaps assigned them acceptle task in accord with their Rm. 13 understanding from brooklyn.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Let's be as accurate as possible for the sake of history and truth.

    The German branch of the Bible Students was called Earnest Bible Students.

    Rutherford invented the new name JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES to separate and distinguish the many branches

    of Bible Students from his own ego concoction.

    Using the term JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES when the group under discussion was Earnest Bible Student makes a big difference.

    The distinction has to do with the differences between Charles Taze Russell's teachings and Joe Rutherfords.

    Rutherford really screwed the pooch in the Amercian branches of Bible Students. So, he was eager to hold on to and control the

    European congregations and not lose them too.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Development_of_Bible_Students.jpg/1920px-Development_of_Bible_Students.jpg

    Russell wrote in February 1884: "By whatsoever names men may call us , it matters not to us ... we call ourselves simply Christians."

  • Newly Enlightened
  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    The issue of the concentration camps is discussed with some frequency by the New York Times. The publisher was an American Jew. My mom and many Germans claim they did not know. Historians comb the records to see if Americans were informed. Sadly, the elites were informed. The New York Times reporters filed detailed stories from across Europe. Sulzberger, however, believed that American Jews first responsibility was to America. European Jewry was a side problem. He blocked the concentration camp stories from page one coverage. There never were banner headlines or stirring editorials.

    The Jewish leadership met with President Roosevelt or his top aides fairly frequently. They demanded that a small military force bomb the train tracks. Roosevelt never committed. There is no doubt that minimal efforts could have saved millions of lives. Could US action stop the camps completely? Of course not!

    Another issue is why British and American troops liberating the camps were not prepared for what they encountered. There was such disgust and horror that the Allieds soldiers snapped and rather than taking prisoners, tortured and executed surrenering guards. It was so bad special inquiries were held. The Brits claimed the Americans did it. Americans claimed it was the Brits. Nothing happened. There is very sickening film footage showing the camps administration and gas chambers. The Nazis were so proud they commissioned propoganda films. We were told not to eat before we saw the film. My prof had the college health service on standby.

    Oh did Germans know about the camps? I never met one who knew. One day I summoned up the courage to ask Jewish students if it were possible for German civilians not to know. I was told that the camps were spread throughout Germany. Burning flesh has a gruesome odor and carries for miles. In my personal life, I recall Christoper St. in Greenwich Village before the AIDS epidemic. Now I walk down the same blocks. The people are missing.

    Terry and I disagree concerning the Witnesses and Rutherford. The Witness doctrines without Rutherford would have attracted action from the Gestapo. There is no doubt that Rutherford's cantakerous personality made matters much worse. My mom detailed for me how life in New Jersey became worse because of his personality. Fr. Conklin would have persecuted Witnesses even without Rutherford. The annoying part is that he made life so much worse for Witnesses yet he rarely faced the consequences of his actions.

  • kaik
    kaik

    Terry, I am not sure if you name JWs for German state for entire German's occupied Europe, or specific territories. I have seen original book printed in interwar period in Czech language which still in 1932 was published in Prague under Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society & International Bible Students. Document related to JWs used as servants of Heydrich (+1942) uses the same name, International Bible Students . I wonder if the old timers stuck with the old name. I also notices that change between publishing homes between 1932 and after where only Watch Tower is used as a publishing house versus International Bible Students .

  • kaik
    kaik

    Band on Run, there are several issues with thinking that Holocaust and concentration camps could be stopped. They were in existence since late 1930's and Germany was not in war until 1939 and USA/USSR until 1941. In my hometown Jews were already killed in April 1939 a onward nd first transports occurred from Ostrava around March 1939. Until 1942 Germans were a master of Europe. Whatever they decided to do, it could not be stopped by anyone. There was no stronger power until their defeat at the Stalingrad. German economy in 1940 was even larger than USA due incorporation of Austria and Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. No country in Europe before WWII would start a war on behalf of oppressed minorities. This was status established by Peace of Westphalia in 1648 which forbade European states in interfering in other countries affaris on behalf of the national or religious minorities. This status was prerserved for the next 300 years.

    When Germany occupied most of Europe, the biggest genocides happened in Eastern Europe. Nazi regime very quickly carried extermination with their facilities. Until 1943 the area was out of reach for RAF and USAF from their bases in UK. There was no way that successful air raides could be carried that far into the Eastern Europe. That was also reason why most of the Eastern Germany, Protectorate, Slovakia, and Hungary, Vienna have not seen bombing until much later part of the WWII (Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Bratislava were not bombed until 1944). Most of the raids on Central and Eastern Europe were carried from Italian bases once British and American occupies southern tip of Italian penninsula. It would be impossible to stop the holocaust before 1943 from air raids alone. Additionally, Central Europe had dense railway grid with 100,000 miles of tracks that interconnected and not even a collapse of air defenses in Germany could knock them out. In March 1945 the tracts and rails worked so well that it carried 1 million troops in that month alone and many more refugees. Destruction of such vast network was almost not possible from the air campaign even with systemathic targetting as USAF started in summer of 1944. Dresden rail junction functioned two days after air raides. The camp facilities also held thousands of POW and forced laborers, so bombing of them would kill thousands of other people.

    Did people knew what was happening? Yes they knew, but they were not aware of the extent of the killing. It was not imaginable for the society the horror until the war was over. And majority of population did not really cared at that time. People attempted to survive. They are happy that are not that one on the end of the rope. Survivors do not care about the victims. The same mentality existed in French Revolution during the Reign of Terror. Thousands of people were guillotined and the victims were immediatelly forgotten the day they lost their heads. When anyone later inquired what French did in 1794 the simple answer was "I do not know, I just tried to survive". Executions were often carried in public and announced on press, radio and filmed. Brno' mass shooting range was opened to public. Mass executions also happened in the city center as entertainment for Nazis like mentioned here in downtown of Prague during Xmas 1941: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM902N7UIjY. Destruction of Lidice, its leveling, and killing all men was filmed, announced, and used in cinema before start up movies as way to inflict fear into the population. When you see newspaper from occupied Europe, you see the list of people who were executed daily. With their name, age, address, and profession.

    Many JWs in the 1930's started their own fate with a collision with the government. In Czechoslovakia which was democracy until 1938, the JW on purpose violated publishing laws and played a martyr for their faith. Government did not want foreigners distributing literature in time were war was expected. And there was issue with amount of publication than anyone could distribute while not violating tax and publishing laws. JWs could not often explain what they weer doing with bag of books and where the money went after they sold it out. Situation in Germany after 1933 was much worse and they would have to expect violent suppresion at the hand of the totalitarian regime.

  • prologos
    prologos

    kalk interesting links, the siruation in the protectorate must have been unique and better for the witnesses. There might have been some atrocities, resitence against the germans, but I rember in 1941, when the war started with Russia, we were near Prag, hunderts of german children without any armed pretection, unharmed in conditions that were better for food & supplies than in germany, but with "V" strips of paper in the windows of the trafik stores. Some of these berlin kids did not leave Checkoslowakia until 44. and how about Theresianstadt? the fake homey jewish camp for world media consumption?

    Lidice aside, you were kind of protected in the protektorat. surounded by mountains, almost like switzerland. until the tawarishy arrived and returned later.

    Now are the best of times for all to enjoy a good real PILSNER

  • kaik
    kaik

    Prologos, Protectorate was probably better than most of the occupied Europe and the situation was indeed unique. It is often compared as brutal, but efficient dictatorship that contrasted with liberal free interwar democracy Czechoslovakia, and provided unique industrial opportunities for the upper classes and industrial workers. The masses did not benefit much, but industries did because Protectorate was integrated into German economy and was extensively modernized. Overall, both my parents lived through WWII and told me that their childhood was ruined because of the war. My father was a refugee, they had no place to live during and after war, they moved from place to place depending where the Nazi and postwar government resettled them. Slovakia was much better place because it did not experienced war until summer of 1944 and it was seen as a second Switzerland during WWII. Protectorate government attempted to direct people attention from the war into the parties, drinking, movies, concert halls, and extensive working hours. I heard in the 1980' s that never people got so drunk as they did during WWII. Germans during holidays flocked to Prague as it was seen as safehaven. British government had an agreement with Czechoslovak governement-in-exile that Prague would not be bombed (only USAF bombed Prague). Due much less restrictive system, Germans could watch forbidden movies from USA and listen jazz that was popular in Czechoslovakia and still played through WWII. Occupational regime tolerated as it wanted to keep a peace, but brutally suppressed anti-german opposition. The biggest loss from Protectorate was a destruction of intelligentsia and Czechoslovak society did not had much to begin with due having short independence, which helped paving a power toward communism in 1948. Intelligentsia would be a crucial for limitting the rise of the communism.

    I heard conflicting stories about JW during WWII from elderly we had in our KH. Some JW were executed during the marshall law of 1942 following assassination of Heydrich. Their only crime was that JWs refused to wear identification papers based on disinterpretation of Rev 13:16-17. In time where hundreds of people were killed for violating extreme measures such as lackign identification papers, this was foolish behavior. I have been in Terezín only once and drove though it bunch of times, it was rather depressing city. Terezín was rather collection of various prisons and camps which served as staging ground for transit into Germany and Poland during Holocaust, but thousands others outside Jews went through it and died. Even German dissidents from Sudetenland and Protectorate. I am not sure where JWs were held, because some of them we had were imprisoned in Poland and Germany during WWII.

  • prologos
    prologos

    kalk, yes I was not a jw then, but enjoyed our stay 1941-42.

    we were flustered to see for the first time signs in the public bath/ pool,- reserving a section for german 'herrenrasse' not unlike the US south no "colored signs."

    Yes, the V for victory signs that were the only anti-german expressions we could see were a reference to Churchill's raised two fingers. I guess Britain felt obliged to the slovak people, Skoda and all, for having failed them at Munich, Chaimberlain's fly-in.

    good to share thoughts with you.

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