An important difference between atheists and true believers

by Hortensia 219 Replies latest social current

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Apog - So your main objection was atheists hijacking topics, but when challenged to find one you admit you could not.

    Yes, I only come here for short visits these days when I need a little break from my work, and so my commitment to any discussion here must be limited. I suppose it was unwise to read the most recent threads looking for one, because as Violia indicated, most of the religious folks who wanted to talk about religion were run off a little while back, and I only went back about a week in time by covering 20 pages. In any case, I was trying to be methodical and didn't want to jump to an easy example, but I could have if I wanted to. Surely I needn't bring up the continual abuse that tec received here until she was finally banned for saying "Bless you" too many times?

    Now your objection is that when a fundie ranted about how their god was going to torment millions of men, women and children in hellfire for all eternity, and posted cartoons to support her point, I called her god a "moral monster".

    Really?

    What would you have preferred? Should I have said that a god who invented eternal torment isn't very nice?

    Frankly, yes. Or something in-between that and what you actually said. Using incendiary words doesn't accomplish anything except draw attention to your own strident voice. You pretend that you are being dispassionate but all that people see in these outbursts (when they're not already eager to agree with you) is that you're using very angry words. Is this the proper way to attack a belief you think is harmful? Why not take the high road and be calm and reasonable?

    You act as if you are doling out justice by your replies, but it sometimes comes across as revenge instead. I honestly think that you would be better off addressing your feelings in private than coming on here and blasting people for believing in the Bible God, but until you acknowledge your anger over your past, you can't come to terms with it.

  • DJS
    DJS

    Viola,

    You see things much differently than I. The only area of possible agreement I would have with you, Ap and the others is whether atheists attempt to hijack clearly theist posts. Ap was given a homework assignment and couldn't find any recent examples; there are probably some. Hopefully these will be few and far between and become even fewer as the discourse about it continues. As I have stated before, most theists respect non-theist dicussions as well; some do not. so let's call that a wash, even-steven and learn from and respect one another.

    I don't post a lot, and you may be referring to me as an 'aggressive' atheist. I do not think of myself in that manner and do not act in that manner on this site. But I do call out stupid, ignorant, irrational, reactionary devoid-of-facts posts on a routine basis. And I will continue to do so, as should everyone else on this site. But I almost exclusively limit by aggressiveness to supporting gays, for example, and the areas where I am an expert.

    This site is already dominated by theist, JW specific posts and commentary. If it reflected that more than it does, it isn't likely the atheists would be here (I wouldn't). And without the atheists among us this site would be dull and bland while high school graduates talked about scripture and all things Borgian (just like the Kingdom Hall we all left).

  • cofty
    cofty

    Apog - I have no anger at all towards religion. I just happen to know that it is based on mythology and superstition.

    I do hate the WT but most of us do.

    Stop trying to psychoanalyse others.

    You can be Mr Nice Guy and I will be Bill Blyth - love me - despise me - either way is fine.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    When a typical jws comes to this board now, they see aggressive atheists anda few judging come to Jesus folks ( most have left)

    So, again, the problem is that some atheist were as aggressive in their beliefs as Christians?

    Can't we all get along? Tolerance is what is needed.

    Just last night someone on this forum told me I was going to burn in hell for all eternity. That kind of tolerance?

    So that is what this board has come to- Xjws are atheists ( the new Truth??) and if you don't agree post somewhere else?

    Oh, come on. That's just ridiculous. What it's come to is that Christianity no longer has a special place. It can be questioned as vociferously as any other belief. No one is telling anyone not to post here. That's is simply not true at all.

  • cofty
    cofty

    When somebody comes on here preaching that the governing body is god's channel on earth, lots of people will uncompromisingly present evidence to the contrary.

    When people preach that the bible is withour error, or that life was created, or that a dead carpenter rose from the dead, or that everybody who disagrees will burn in hell, it's considered bad manners to show why they are wrong.

    What's the difference?

  • Simon
    Simon

    Surely I needn't bring up the continual abuse that tec received here until she was finally banned for saying "Bless you" too many times?

    Well, you can try ... but of course like most theists you're just spouting crap and a totally different interpretation of reality than actually happened.

    Good try ... but lame and typical - everything we expect.

    The theists who were kicked off were kicked off because they violated the forum guidelines. Specifically, they could now show any self-control and repeatedly insulted people, spammed the site with their bullshit and hijacked / ruined topics all the while accusing others of the bad behaviour they were demonstrating.

    We're not here to be a publishing site for the mentally ill.

    If you believe in god then good for you - pray to him at home before you go to bed or have a meal. But we don't want to hear your dellusions repeated over and over and over or how god is so loving but also a mystery becuase of the evidence of his powerlessness to prevent death and misery on a mass scale or listen to someone dismiss the suffering of others as 'a good thing'.

    Also, you seem to have forgotten that people who did react badly and aggressively to the theist spam were also violating the forum guidelines were also prevented from posting. But of course, like all theists you can't look at things fairly or objectively and simply imagine that if you aren't getting your own way 100% of the time then you must be being persecuted for your beliefs.

    Kind of ironic that I get accused of favoring both sides by the extremists on both sides.

    In case you haven't noticed, the times are a changin' - respect for god and theism is giving way to redicule and anger at the crap you bring to society and rightly so. Give up your demands for reverence because you don't deserve it and you won't get it. You are fools and should be rediculed as such at every opportunity. You should be laughed at and made fun of because really your arguments don't even deserve any other responses - you cannoy even take part in sensible debates so why should people even give you air time?

    But don't come bleating that you are being persecuted - true persecution of people is something religion has specialised in over the centuries so pray to your murder loving genocidal deity but don't expect mercy from us.

  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe

    xanhippe I'm still waiting for an example or an apology for calling me dishonest. - Cofty

    LOL you do make me laugh. I think you are being intellectually dishonest. When Fraz raised the subject of banning religion and what a mistake that had been in the Soviet Union you said that was not what you meant at all. When I then tackled you about your desire to see the end of religion you said,

    I would love to see an end to religion, but only because everybody decided of their own volition that it was nonsense.

    This isn't going to happen is it? That's as much a risible fairy story as religious belief. So why are you backing down from the question that I (and I believe Fraz) were driving at which is what do you expect or hope to see happen to religion? We are all well aware that you would love to see an end to it but with the above statement you are dodging the question of how this will happen. Perhaps the crux of the matter is that you haven't really thought it through and you think it is a simple matter of people intelligently deriding religion for a long period of time.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    I really don't believe atheists on this board wish believers any ill will or want tohurt them on purpose. I started a thread about my beliefs and had 691 views and 74 posts (half are my responses) in 4 pages. Many posters it is evident are atheist, none of them ridiculed me or called me names, and also I have not tried to preach to any to try and convert them. That being said I did get a PM preaching at me to visit a bible students website which was decidedly not for me.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/279407/1/Is-my-clinging-on-to-a-belief-in-a-Creator-doing-me-any-harm#.U102TPldW8A

    I think there are just some personality clashes on the board and some attribute it to being an atheist/believer problem when it's probably not.

    Kate xx

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Well, you can try ... but of course like most theists you're just spouting crap and a totally different interpretation of reality than actually happened.

    I'm not a theist, I'm an ignostic. Believe it or not, people who don't believe in God can still have a problem with how theists are treated. I do specifically recall your saying that tec was warned not to keep saying "Bless you" (or whatever the exact phrase was), and you felt she was antagonizing you by continuing to do so. Talk about a persecution complex! She was nothing but mild to other posters. Any perceived slight that she gave was minuscule, a proverbial paper cut, and people reacted to it completely out of proportion in order to frame her, like a soccer player taking a flop after a touch from an opponent. Similarly, AGuest never got more than a little sassy with others for the abuse she received.

    Please don't make a strawman out of this statement. I'm not suggesting that their ideas should have been welcomed here. I rarely agreed with anything they had to say, and think it was a good idea to object to their claims of personal revelation. I just don't understand why it's considered open season on theists these days when they preach. They're being treated as subhuman, like the untouchable castes in places like Japan and India. Anything you say to them doesn't matter because their feelings are not worth consideration.

    The theists who were kicked off were kicked off because they violated the forum guidelines. Specifically, they could now show any self-control and repeatedly insulted people, spammed the site with their bullshit and hijacked / ruined topics all the while accusing others of the bad behaviour they were demonstrating.

    Perhaps I missed some posts where theists like the two above did not show self-control. I definitely did not see that when I read many of the lengthy threads they participated in.

    Also, you seem to have forgotten that people who did react badly and aggressively to the theist spam were also violating the forum guidelines were also prevented from posting.

    Okay, I didn't see that, but duly noted.

    In case you haven't noticed, the times are a changin' - respect for god and theism is giving way to redicule and anger

    And you want to be on the winning team, right? Well, as I indicated before, it's your forum. If I don't like it, I should probably leave. But let me simply point out one thing that hasn't changed: the faith of Witnesses in the Bible and God. Sure, the doctrines change all the time, but not their faith in these basic things. So now there's a big gap between what they believe and what posters are expected to believe. I thought you wanted this forum to be a welcoming place for questioning JWs.

    One can easily look back to the early days of JWN and see tons of religious posts being permitted. It was a very different environment where people were free to question what they'd been taught about the Bible without having to immediately discard the Bible entirely. Now you're taking the ladder and steps out of the pool and asking everyone to jump in the deep end. They might get there eventually on their own, but why try to push them in? Weren't you in their shoes once?

    But don't come bleating that you are being persecuted - true persecution of people is something religion has specialised in over the centuries

    And now it's time for payback?

  • cofty
    cofty

    Xanthippe

    I said...

    "Nobody I have ever encountered wants to ban religion."

    You said...

    Richard Dawkins wants to see an end to religion and Christopher Hitchens felt the same way. To say you have never encountered anyone who wants this when you regularly quote these people is at the very least rather dishonest.

    I and Snare & Racket told you that Dawkins and Hitchens would never be in favour of banning religion. Snare posted a video as evidence.

    You owe me an apology for calling me dishonest.

    I am not dodging any question. Religion is in decline in Europe and Scandanvia in particular. Reason is prevailing over superstition.

    It is in the USA and in the Middle East that there is still a majority of superstitious people. The tide will turn eventually.

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