by ABibleStudent 75 Replies latest social physical
ABibleStudent - I think "forgiveness" is a fuzzy term. I'm not sure people mean the same thing by it as others may mean.
It is commonly perceived to be a virtue but I'm not convinced.
Of course bitterness is harmful - that's obvious.
I have no feelings about the Watchtower organisation, no emotional reaction, but I don't forgive. Why should I?
Although I might forgive leaders of dangerous cults like the WTBTS.......aBiblestudent
Seriously Robert?..
You would Forgive the WBT$ Leaders who have Destroyed the Lives of so many JW`s??!!..
Many of them are Right Here on Our Forum..
Then tell us what a Big friggin Help you are to Our Community????!!!!!..
.
That`s Exactly what the WBT$ Leaders want from All of us ExJW`s..
To continuously Forgive every Evil Thing they`ve Done,or are About to Do..
That way the WBT$ is Free to do what They Want and it`s Business as Usual..
In our World you Can`t have it Both Ways..You either Forgive the WBT$ or you Oppose Them..
.
When you give out Advice like..
Forgiving the WBT$ Leaders..Forgive JW`s who Continue to Ruin Peoples Lives..
You become Part of the Problem..You don`t Score any Points for having Good Intentions..
Thats why you Shouldn`t be Giving Advice,about a Life you`ve Never Lived..
........................................................................................................................
...OUTLAW
Outlaw I grew up a JW and I agree with Robert. i'll even go so far as to say there's nothing to forgive.
It's entirely my choice how I choose to feel, no actions of someone else or organisation can make me hate or be angry. Not that it didn't take years to finally come to this understanding... And with the understanding comes peace of mind, a spacious, loving heart and an ability to get on with and enjoy life.
I haven't looked at a JW forum for more than 5 years (been out for 7.5..... had to calculate that, I feel like I've been out for 20), I ended up on this forum on 'memorial night'. Which I think is an energetic thing.
Don't be mislead into thinking your dark emotions are someone/ something else's responsibility, they're entirely your choice. If every human held onto hate for perceived injustices like you are encouraging our world would not grow into a better place. Your hate will not change a single JW mind, rather it will recomfirm their beliefs. Where as a life of love, peace, happiness, fulfilment... confounds their beliefs. I know my mum is totally confused by at my 'successful' life and the unconditional love I show her regardless of her actions... I'm not behaving as she has been warned by them I will behave. She now knows (but won't consciously admit to) that the JWs are liars. I've proved it.
i wish you the best in your journey out of anger and hatred. It's not easy but is so worth it in the end:)
blessings
Willow
Outlaw I grew up a JW and I agree with Robert. i'll even go so far as to say there's nothing to forgive.....Willow76
Uhhh..You can`t do that..LOL!!..
You can`t agree with Robert about forgiveness,then say theres nothing to forgive..LOL!!..
You`ll have to make up your mind!..LOL!!..
I ended up on this forum on 'memorial night'. Which I think is an energetic thing.
Welcome!..
Your hate will not change a single JW mind, rather it will recomfirm their beliefs.
I`m not trying to change any JW minds..If they like it in the WBT$,they can stay with my blessing..
i wish you the best in your journey out of anger and hatred..blessings.....Willow
My posts aren`t about Anger or Hatred..
They`re about "not" Foolishly Forgiving People,who are Still Set on Doing the Wrong Thing..
They`re about "not" Giving Advice,about a Life you`ve Never Lived..
.
Thanks for the Blessings!..
Much Appreciated!..
............................................OUTLAW
ABibleStudent - As others have already written, organizations are not individuals and therefore cannot be forgiven. Although I might forgive leaders of dangerous cults like the WTBTS, I would never trust those leaders to behave any differently than as a dangerous cult.
OUTLAW -
[Although I might forgive leaders of dangerous cults like the WTBTS.......aBiblestudent]
Seriously Robert?..
You would Forgive the WBT$ Leaders who have Destroyed the Lives of so many JW`s??!!..
Many of them are Right Here on Our Forum..
Then tell us what a Big friggin Help you are to Our Community????!!!!!..
Hi OUTLAW, How would you feel about someone cherry-picking what you write so that they can write emotinoally laden words to create a diatribe to rationalize their perspective? When quoting what I write, at least quote my entire sentence (and preferably the entire paragraph) and not just a single phrase.
Since you have some very strongly held emotions about the WTBTS (and my lack of JW experience), how long were you a JW and how long have you been holding on to those feelings? I was adversely affected by the WTBTS in 2010 and I moved on sometime in 2011. Since you DA'ed in 1974, how has the WTBTS adversely affected you in the last 40 years?
From the thread A question about those who are disassociated by OUTLAW -
When I disassociated myself I just walked out and didn`t come back.I gave the elders no explanation,I just told them not to bother me again,that was in 1974.When I read the posts on this forum,it seems as though some feel the need to give a formal explanation.Why is this ?Are the jws demanding an explanation if you leave?If so why would you go along with this invasion of privacy?I would appreciate it,if someone could bring me up to date on this...THANKS...OUTLAW
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
Anger, forgiveness, repentence, forgetting...... justice....
For me, the hard part was being told "Don't be angry"... not that I would be angry my whole life, only when necessary. I am angry when I see wrongdoing... If you saw someone being beat, would you be angry at that action?
Forgiveness.... for me, that word was used as a "get out of jail free card", the word the WTBTS used so that you could not question their sin... So, in the context of the WTBTS, 'forgiveness' was a cheating kind of word. People, individuals, are quite different, and can merit forgiveness. I ask for it.
Repentence... demanded of us all, in detail! Not so of the GB... the words/ phrases "evidently," "apparently," "it seems as though," upon further examination" are the closest the GB lets themselves get to admitting the wrongs, the lies, the inhuman weights and burdens they have placed on 'their children,' by a 'mother' of no conscience and no knowledge of 'sin'.
Forgetting.... only to the extent that you can move on with your life. Never forgetting the past, so that you can always learn from it, protect others with it.
Justice... requires letting people feel these emotions, support them in their solutions, not putting them down as they work thru things.
As does Willow... I try to use my experiences to make myself better, as does any person who goes thru trials. Use your experiences to improve, survive, grow and have a better life. ;-)
cofty - ABibleStudent - I think "forgiveness" is a fuzzy term. I'm not sure people mean the same thing by it as others may mean.
It is commonly perceived to be a virtue but I'm not convinced.
Of course bitterness is harmful - that's obvious.
I have no feelings about the Watchtower organisation, no emotional reaction, but I don't forgive. Why should I?
Hi cofty, I agree with what was written in the article that I quoted in my initial post to this thread.
I agree that "forgiveness" is a fuzzy term and is interpreted differently by people, which is why I liked what was written in the article that I quoted (see excerpt below of the articles' advice about how to forgive).
HOW TO FORGIVE:
• First, realize that forgiving does not mean that you condone or forget offenses. And it doesn't necessarily mean you need to reconcile with the offender. The act of forgiveness simply means moving beyond feeling aggravated and angry. It means giving up the desire for revenge.
• Accept that you cannot control other people's behavior.
• Look at the hurtful incident in perspective. It isn't always possible, but if you can, try to see what happened from the other person's point of view - or at least from a neutral viewpoint.
• Gradually move away from blame to accepting that what happened, happened, and that it is in the past. You can't do anything about the past.
• Try writing your thoughts down in a letter (that you don't intend to send). It's a non-hurtful way to vent your feelings.
Although some people consider "forgiveness" a virtue, I was hoping that readers of this thread might consider health benefits to themselves rather than considering 'forgiveness" as a virtue or for some religious dogma.
I also agree with you about not forgiving the WTBTS, but possibly for a different reason than yours. How can someone forgive an organization that has no mind? It would be like forgiving the gun/knife that was used to kill someone.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
There are many people in life I have forgiven but the WT are not nor ever will be one them.
The treatment that has been doled out to me (and others) over the years was carried out willfully and gleefully by these so called christians.
In fact I even tryed to discuss with an elder that I was having difficulty forgiving the bros and sis that were horrible.
And instead of helping me he turned me in to the other elders for having the wrong attitude!
I can move on, but forgive while they are still arrogantly reaking havoc in peoples lives? I don't think so.
.
Wow..You went back 12 years in my posts..
Your Desperate!!..LOL!!..
Hi OUTLAW, How would you feel about someone cherry-picking what you write so that they can write emotinoally laden words to create a diatribe to rationalize their perspective? When quoting what I write, at least quote my entire sentence (and preferably the entire paragraph) and not just a single phrase.
Since you have some very strongly held emotions about the WTBTS (and my lack of JW experience), how long were you a JW and how long have you been holding on to those feelings?I was adversely affected by the WTBTS in 2010 and I moved on sometime in 2011. Since you DA'ed in 1974, how has the WTBTS adversely affected you in the last 40 years?.....Abiblestudent
From the thread A question about those who are disassociated by OUTLAW -
When I disassociated myself I just walked out and didn`t come back.I gave the elders no explanation,I just told them not to bother me again,that was in 1974.When I read the posts on this forum,it seems as though some feel the need to give a formal explanation.Why is this ?Are the jws demanding an explanation if you leave?If so why would you go along with this invasion of privacy?I would appreciate it,if someone could bring me up to date on this...THANKS...OUTLAW
The WBT$ will affect most Born-Ins until They are Dead..Some of them Already Are..Prematurely..
They took their Lives because they were in So Much Pain..
.
Let me be Really Clear this time..
"Stop Pretending Your Qualified To Give Advice"
...........................................................................................OUTLAW
Robert, I think the word 'forgive' is one that we can get easily hung up on. I believe I understand where you are going with this, and it's about moving on. My shrink used to say I had to embrace forgiveness, and we duked it out. The term has impiled meaning .... that there has been an acknowledgement of wrongdoing, and you are forgiving said wrongdoing. But you can't forgive someone who neither acknowledges they have done the deed, nor apologizes for it.
I can choose happiness, I can choose to move on, but I will never choose to forgive those who keep trying to destroy my life, and treting me like dog poo on their shoe.
Accept the wounds, and realize I can't change anything. Let go of caring about what they think. That, for me, is the way to heal. It is 'moving on', not 'forgiving'.
And this comment from another poster, Xan:
So what if you had spent five years in a concentration camp.
Been sexually abused your entire childhood.
Or forcibly conscripted to fight for your country.
Shit happens.
We can't do anything about most of it.
You could use a bit of sensitivity training. Yeah, I grew up being sexually abused in ways that would make you have nightmares for the rest of your life, physically abused, emotionally and spiritually .... and you have the blankety-blank NERVE to say SHIT HAPPENS?
The insensitivity of some internet 'people' will never cease to amaze me.
t
