Did Satan prove God wrong? a possible bibical flaw

by Leander 51 Replies latest jw friends

  • circe2
    circe2

    Leander,

    You could believe what the Mormons believe: Since Satan seems to have told the truth about men NOT dieing if they ate of the tree, then Satan must actually be part of the plan.

    Satan, Adam and Jesus all volunteered to act out this elaborate drama (that includes Job) in order to test humans. Those that pass the test get to be a God over their own planet.

    I always thought it was an interesting way to deal with the obvious discrepancies.

    And no, I'm not Mormon.

    circe

  • COMF
    COMF

    Satan makes the claim that the only reason humans serve God is because of selfish reasons. God allowed Satan to test this theory on Job

    Actually, you're repeating the society's spin on it, which involves a lot of insinuation and implication on Satan's part--things you have to "discern" with "eyes of faith". In the actual story as written in the book, a reference to "humans" never comes up in the challenge. God says to Satan, "Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him, blah blah blah?"

    Satan answers, "Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house blah blah blah?"

    See, in the book, the literal relating of the story, it's all about Job. Nobody else. The WBTS added in all that stuff about "by implication the rest of humankind and even God's favorite angel blah blah blah".

    COMF

    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all your piety nor wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
    Nor all your tears wash out a word of it.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    This is what YOU KNOW and Yardiff and also yoyomamma/henry P/mavman/mario kempes/God Rules had to say:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=25047&site=3#319129

    It's not about who is more powerful. Of course that Jehovah is more powerful than Satan. The issue is about sovereignty and who has the right to rule. Satan never accused Jehovah of being weeker but questioned the right of rulership.
    You need to reread YouKnow's post and understand that this is what he is referring to.

    This is Alan F's response:

    The JW doctrine of universal sovereignty, nicely explained by You Know, is completely nonsensical. The question of God's power is moot according to this doctrine because even Satan acknowledges that God is supremely powerful. So the doctrine is that Satan questioned God's right to rule, as well as whether God's creatures were all motivated by self-interest. A careful look at these notions shows that they're nonsensical too.
    In the final analysis the right to rule over anything is determined by power. The most powerful rules if he wants to. That's unaguable, because whoever ends up ruling over others after a battle over who should rule is by definition the most powerful. Since God is all-powerful by virtue of his being the Creator, and he has demonstrated his desire to continue ruling over all creation, he has the right to rule by virtue of his power. That's because all "rights" are granted by some authority.

    "But wait!" the typical JW will say. "We're not talking about God's right to rule by virtue of his power, but by virtue of his moral superiority and so forth." Well, pretty much the same argument holds here. Who determines what is moral and right? Whoever is the most powerful in the universe. Otherwise we would have to say that a standard of morals exists apart from God, and that God conforms to this standard. But a JW will not admit of this, because he will say that God sets the standard. So a JW will have to admit that he believes God is moral because and only because he is God. Thus the claim that God has a right to rule by virtue of his moral superiority is a meaningless tautology.

    The question of whether all creatures are motivated mainly by self-interest is ridiculous. In the realm of mankind we see a complete spectrum of motivations, from pure self-interest to massive selflessness, and this state has existed from mankind's beginnings. So that question has long been answered. The question can also be answered by considering that God is the all-knowing designer of mankind and that he has caused all their parts to be "down in writing" (from Psalms). All that a competent examiner has to do to see whether God designed mankind to have a range of motivations is to look over the "design specification document". God himself can certainly make the specs available. If a questioner is incompetent to examine the specs, then God wins. If a questioner questions the specs, God can enlighten him. To claim that only a field test could answer the question of motivation, as You Know and his beloved Society do, is to claim that God is incompetent.

    These arguments apply equally well to the claims of certain other Christians that God needed to demonstrate anything in order to prove to Satan or anyone else the nature of mankind.

    Finally there is a moral question: If God did indeed do as the Watchtower Society claims, then God is a monster unfit to rule. An illustration proves this easily. Suppose a human father is challenged by an adversary that his young children only appear to love him, and obey him only because they're afraid of him, and that given the opportunity they would dump him toute suite. The father challenges this claim and the adversary says, "Let me do anything I please to your children and we'll see who is right." The father says, "Ok" and the adversary proceeds to threaten and torture and deceive the children, who of course are not let in on the challenge. He kills some of the children in the process. The children see the father looking placidly on, watching their torture, and they conclude that the father doesn't love them. Who won the challenge? The father or the adversary? Did the father demonstrate love for his children? Of course not. He demonstrated the opposite, and so the adversary won.

    Of course, a JW will object to the above illustration, but all of their objections will evaporate, as can be shown by a demonstration: Anyone who thinks the above illustration is poor is welcome to challenge it and demonstrate why the father proves himself loving by allowing his children to be tortured and killed by a criminal.

    AlanF

    way to go Alan.

    UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    Running man said "And yes, since JW's believe that 999 out of 1000 persons will be killed for disobeying God, then clearly Satan was right. The overwhelming majority of humans are on Satan's side."

    Don't forget that those who "fall away" and are not saved is a large proportion, is it "a third of the stars" I believe.

    Then not all witnesses are assured salvation. I think you'll find there are a large proportion of witnesses who feel very uncomfortable when considering if they will survive the end (take Fred Hall for example).

    So you actually made an under statement. God is going to practically kill everybody having made everyone inherantly imperfect in the first place and then made them suffer all their lives for it.

  • terafera
    terafera

    It's threads like this that keep me coming back.

    Dungbeetle, thanks for posting that info. I missed it the first time around. That example was so true. I've never thought of it that way... very interesting!!

    I have talked about this with others and the same ideas were expressed. For example, the Bible never talks about Adam or Even being told their children would die or the rest of their offspring. It appears they were told they would lose only their lives. Would it be fair to cripple all their offspring, millions upon millions, because of what two humans did?

    The parable of Job is interesting too.... the one part I've never understood is when Job has had everything happen to him. He's in pain, his family is gone, everything has torn apart and fallen... he is crying out in misery and Jehovah starts dissing him- "Where were YOU when I made the earth?!" I always feel so bad for Job... what did he do to deserve this crap, anyway?? Because he was faithful? Then the lesson is, dont be a faithful servant of God, because you'll get majorly &^%$%^'d with.

    Another one that always irked me.... Abraham and his son. God asks him to tie up his son, to get the knife out and get ready to kill him. I still have visions from the Bible Story book, the son with his eyes covered, Abraham ready to slice him. Then God stops him. What the --?? If I did this to my son, told him I wanted to make sure he loves me.... asked him to kill himself, even got the car in the garage, bound up his hands, got the car started, put him in... then turn off the car and say, 'okay son, get out. I know you love me now.' Do you think my son would feel a new, intense bond with me? Or do you think he would think I was psychotic and call the cops to arrest me??

    I've never understood this!!

    Someone enlighten me, please.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    I wish I could enlighten you, but I'm struggling through this me-self.

    I only hope and pray the accounts have been mistranslated somehow...<sigh>.

    UADNA-US (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America-United States)

  • jerome
    jerome

    Members of the board leand me your ear for a momement.

    Ah hmm [Clears throat]

    I have questions to ask of you.

    How many of you exactly have studied the bible under the following conditions:

    1) Without a watchtower to guide you.

    2) In the presence of a minister or other legitimately genuine Biblically literale individual.

    [letigetamently genuine = Accepted by the majority of Christanity as credible]

    3) Looking for meaning and not only to critisize after you became a sckeptic when leaving the Jehovahs Witnesses.

    4) For an EXTENDED period of time with a qualified individual like going to church on sunday. Or by YOURSELF.

    The reson that I ask this is because I realize that the Bible comes under alot of pressure on this board and has noone to defend it and alos some of the issues that you bring up IMHO are seemingly irrelevant. Sometimes when I read this antibiblicall threads I think that sometimes people go a little overboard when they think that that they have discovered a fault and stress too much on the trivial.

    I myself am treating the bible sckeptically because of the sheeer number of intelegent people who have lost faith in it as Gods Word.

    I dont mean to offend but I would like some aanwsers to those questions.

    You comments may help me alot.

    The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and there may be hell to pay.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    I have read the Bible once a year for 20 years (this will be my twenty-first). I am still 'seeing' things I didn't see before.

    A big example is the relationship between David and Jonathan. Another example is the relationship between Jesus Christ and the women of his day (not what you might think, he was very progressive).

    Probably not this year, but next year I intend to read the Bible books IN THE ORDER THEY WERE WRITTEN. I hear it's a whole new look on things.

    Of course, this will be my twenty-first year reading 'The Lord of the Rings' as well...

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    I read the dictionary once. It had a great vocabulary but I kept loosing the plot every few minutes.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Uh-Ohhhhh...

    For what I think may be the FIRST time EVER... I must agree with COMF. (SJ ducks, eyes searching sky for lightening...) The Captain is co-rect, dear ones (SJ quickly glances over shoulder, but calms down as she 'hears' "Truth... is truth, child"). And indeed, it is...

    The statement made by the Adversary was made about Job, and ONLY Job... and therefore, cannot be implied of all mankind, for the INCLINATION OF man, in general, is 'bad'. It can, however, set an example for those of us who are God's 'servants', by means of being 'slaves' of Christ. If you remember, Paul (?) was recorded to have said, "YOUR Adversary, the Devil," and not MAN'S Adversary, the Devil.

    Also, although "the whole world is lying in the POWER of the wicked one", it is with the "remaining ones of the seed [of the woman]" that Satan "wages war"... and not with mankind in general. That's just the WTBTS' way of trying to convince mankind in general that all tribulation and persecution comes from Satan (so they can say, "But if you join up with us all that will change"... yeah, right!), when in fact, in MANY instances it is simply man... dominating man... to his injury... in many cases by power GRANTED him... by Satan (i.e., excessively evil thinking and desires, etc.). It is also due many, MANY times to the desires of our OWN hearts... and the choices WE make.

    But with all of that said... what do y'know... Shelby and the Cap'n... in the same 'vein'. Will wonders NEVER cease? (And some folks don't believe in miracles!)

    Peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

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