by sojourner7 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Can anyone tell me what the WT teaches about the resurrection of the earthly class? Do they get completely different bodies or is it a resurrection of the present body? Also, since most of scripture is written for the annointed class, and the annointed class are supposed to go to heaven in spirit bodies, how do they handle Romans 8:11?
"...He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies..."
Thanks!
The Org states the following about the so-called "earthly class":
w98 7/1 p. 21 par. 11 "Death Is to Be Brought to Nothing"
While resurrected ones will be the same individuals they were before their death, they will not need to have the same bodies. As with those raised to heaven, God will give them a body just as it pleases him. No doubt their new bodies will be physically sound and reasonably similar to their original body so that they will be recognized by their loved ones.
Consider the following also, which is cross-referenced with Romans 8:11:
(Ephesians 2:4-5) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness YOU have been saved.
The WT believes in a re-creation of the bodies.
The JWs I have talked with about Romans 8:11 usually give me a blank stare.
If God raises "your mortal bodies also" just as he did with Christ, doesn't that mean He gave life to Christ's mortal body?
Thanks for the reply.
"If God raises "your mortal bodies also" just as he did with Christ, doesn't that mean He gave life to Christ's mortal body?"
Yes, that's pretty much how I see it. Especially in light of Phiippians 3:21:
"...who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body..."
Moreover, according to the WT, Paul and his readers are of the anointed class which means they are supposed to get spirit bodies, because "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." But here, Paul clearly say's his mortal (flesh and blood) body will be given life.
Searcher: ... No doubt their new bodies will be...
No doubt? Evidently.
Moreover, according to the WT, Paul and his readers are of the anointed class which means they are supposed to get spirit bodies, because "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." But here, Paul clearly say's his mortal (flesh and blood) body will be given life.
1. First rule of thumb: Never start with WT's erroneous interpretations re ANYTHING. ;) Since WT always BEGINS from a FALSE premise, their interpretation naturally is also false.
2. WT separates believers by "classes." The Bible never does that. Believers in Scripture are "separated" via DISPENSATIONS (or as some versions say, "administrations"), ie, TIME FRAMES, ie, how GOD was dealing with humanity during different TIME FRAMES or DISPENSATIONS. Not understanding those clear TIME FRAME distinctions reaps a whole lot of confusion, not only for JWs but for a lot of Christians as well.
3. In general, here's how I have come to understand it. Israel was promised an EARTHLY Kingdom all throughout the OT, & a remnant of Israelites WILL have an EARTHLY kingdom in the future with CHRIST in charge (ie, Jews nor JWs will be in charge of it). They will all still be of FLESH & BLOOD, corruptible bodies still prone to death & dying, though a "sinner may live to be 100". The Lord Jesus Christ continued to preach this OT earthly Kingdom Hope throughout the Gospels TO ISRAEL (not Gentiles), Peter & the other apostles TO ISRAEL in Acts (then to Cornelius/Gentile in Acts 10), & then also Paul continued to preach an earthly Kingdom Hope initially to Jews & Gentiles, BUT a TRANSITION was taking place, from the EARTHLY Kingdom Hope to the HEAVENLY Hope, which was finally crystalized in Paul's later prison epistles. A NEW DISPENSATION of TIME was in the making, but the clear demarcation line did not really GEL until Paul met for the last time with a pack of Jewish Leaders of Israel in Acts 28 & they basically dismissed their last opportunity to have the earthly Kingdom in their lifetime. >> Now, a BIG "PAUSE" BEGINS in God's plan for an EARTHLY Kingdom. < < Enter a NEW DISPENSATION of TIME with the NEW HOPE, the HEAVENLY HOPE focused on GENTILES from any/all NATIONS vs. ISRAELITES, though any Israelite or Jew most certainly could & can also be saved during this still ongoing DISPENSATION OF GRACE (though compared to Gentile converts, they are far & few between, whereas previously it was mostly Israelites with FEW Gentiles). ANYONE Saved during this CURRENT "Heavenly Hope/Grace Dispensation" will receive a body of "FLESH & BONE" at the resurrection (WITHOUT THE BLOOD which is corruptible/mortal, whereas FLESH & BONE is incorruptible/eternal/immortal).
FLESH & BLOOD:
1. US: 1 Corinthians 15:50 (Paul to Christians re resurrected bodies): “Now this I say brethren, that FLESH & BLOOD CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
2. CHRIST: Hebrews 2:24 (Paul re Christ who also was born with flesh and blood like us, so that He could destroy death): “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of FLESH & BLOOD, HE ALSO HIMSELF LIKEWISE TOOK PART OF THE SAME; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.”
FLESH & BONE:Now here's the great part which solves the "mystery" & the answer to OP's question:
1. CHRIST: Before His death, Christ was FLESH & BLOOD, mortal, corruptible (see above Heb. 2:24). AFTER His resurrection, He was FLESH & BONE, WITHOUT the blood (which He had already "poured out on our behalf"), His body now immortal/incorruptible:
Luke 24:39 (Christ, after His resurrection): “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH & BONES, as ye see me have.”
2. US: So like our Lord's resurrected body, our resurrected bodies will be likewise:
Ephesians 5:30 (later prison epistle when the heavenly hope & new Dispensation had come into clear view): “For WE are MEMBERS of HIS BODY, of his FLESH, and of His BONES.” (Why not also of His BLOOD? Because He didn't have any, any more! & neither shall we. An EARTHLY MORTAL body needs BLOOD {Leviticus re "Life of the flesh is in the blood."} A "changed" body {1 Cor. 15 & 1 Thess.4} set for Heaven does NOT need BLOOD to exist/live.
~~~
Speculation:
MAYBE, since Adam & Eve were originally created to be ETERNAL, MAYBE they did NOT have any BLOOD in their bodies at first, especially because Adam said re first seeing Eve, "FLESH OF MY FLESH & BONE OF MY BONES" (no mention of BLOOD there).
MAYBE, after the sin of Adam & Eve in the Garden, God somehow "zapped" their bodies to now contain BLOOD (???) which can cause the flesh/bone body to DECAY & die. (???)
I don't know, just guessing on those points.
~~~
FAITHFUL WITNESS - Yup, makes it sound like their previous statement is FACT!!
abbagail: I realize that our resurrected bodies will be flesh and bone, not flesh and blood. The reason I said flesh and blood is because the WT teaches that the anointed class will have spirit bodies, even going so far as to translate Romans 8:23 "...the release from our bodies by ransom." The point I was making is that even if there was an "anointed class", (which as you've pointed out, there is not), Paul clearly says that they will retain their physical bodies, only their bodies will be given life. (immortality)
Hi sojourner7, sorry about that, wasn't trying to "correct" you in any way; was merely "expanding upon" the Flesh/Blood vs. Flesh/Bone aspect for any current-JWs who might be lurking & may have never thought of that before. I was actually talking to/thinking of those unknown persons in my mind when I was typing.
WT's "double evil" re this matter, as you state, is:
1. They use 1 Cor. 15:50 (Flesh & Blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God) to dupe JWs into thinking that the heavenly hope is not open to them. They duped me with that interpretation of that scripture in years gone by. It's a perfect example of their picking & choosing certain verses & ignoring others to convince JWs that only the WT has "all this figured out." (A big LOL to that. :)
2. And since they stress 1 Cor. 15:50 all the time to supposedly prove Point #1 above, they created a big fat dilemma for themselves as to how to explain how their "anointed class" gets to go to heaven afterall, since they are "flesh & blood humans" like everybody else. So I think maybe that's why they had to come up with the "spiritual body" lie, beginning with their lie that Christ was not raised in a flesh/bone body either.
If the WT-HQ Spies lurk at this forum, maybe they will be coming out with some "New Light" in the future with a "huge new revelation from Jehovah via the FDS" that, lo & behold, Flesh & Blood is not the same as Flesh & Bone! (You heard it here first, folks, at JWN! lol).
abbagail: No apologies needed. I meet every Saturday with a JW couple and we've actually become good aquaintenses. In fact, instead of meeting at my house to study, I've been going over theirs. The wifes father is an elder in their Kingdom Hall and I've gotten to know him as well. I love these people and I hate to see them being lied to. The reason I've been posting questions here is because I need to know the details of their theology so I can be as prepared as I can for our meetings. Thank you for your contribution. :)
