by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences
Nope. Never said that, Cofty. Never said it. Don't think it.
Those two things are not even connected. No "on the basis that' at all.
I am off for the rest of the evening; work and such. I'm going to try to think of an example of what you are doing to put it into perspective. Perhaps someone already has in this thread. But if I can, then I will post it later.
Peace,
tammy
Caliber - You have ignored this response...
Even if it was true that there is an afterlife that doesn't begin to answer the question. The suffering of those who drowned, those who were injured and the bereaved was real suffering, in this life. Suffering that it would have been trivially easy for god to prevent.
You paint a picture of a god that is strictly "hands off". This is not the god of Jesus or of the New Testament. He is a god who is initimately involved in the affairs of the world.
I hope you are never hypocritical enough to ask god for anything or give him thanks for anything you perceive to be a blessing. If you do, your entire argument fails.
Never said it. Don't think it. - Tammy
You have made exactly this point.
why should He be more concerned about the temporary death (of the flesh only; death that His Son can resurrect people from) - than about eternal death of His children? - Tammy
Time after time in this thread you have stressed the relative unimportance of the physical life and used that as justification for god passively watching a quarter of a million hepless people drown.
Like Caliber you are creating a false dichotomy.
We are not pawns in god's great pissing contest with Satan. Our lives and happiness in this life really matters.
"Well God why can't you fix this , prevent that ?" The great issue must come to a head . I guess it appears that we are pawns but it is more like
we are caught in the middle of a battle
for hearts and minds and universal rulership ....which was not God's desire or making from the begining
You are questioning God's counter-action moves
we are caught in the middle of a battle for hearts and minds and universal rulership ....which was not God's desire or making from the beginning. - Caliber
Really? God didn't see it coming?
And did god not reserve the right to put limits on how much his beloved creation was to suffer as a result of this cosmic battle?
Has he given Satan complete control with no restrictions?
If so then your god is useless.
If not then your problem remains unanswered.
Incidently there was no fall from perfection, no Adam and Eve, no garden of Eden. Whatever your answer it must at least conform to known facts.
You paint a picture of a god that is strictly "hands off". This is not the god of Jesus or of the New Testament. He is a god who is initimately involved in the affairs of the world.
I hope you are never hypocritical enough to ask god for anything or give him thanks for anything you perceive to be a blessing. If you do, your entire argument fails.
Caliber I have put this important point to you a number of times but you have avoided it.
Let me put it as a direct question.
Do you ask god for anything, or give him thanks for anything you perceive to be a blessing?
Notice how believers desperately cling to the Universal Sovereignty issue as if it's the universal answer, when they cannot even begin to explain where the concept came from, or HOW it represents anything similar to an answer. Whatever it is, it's clearly NOT Biblical, and one REALLY has to engage in massive creative eisegesis in order to claim to see it in Genesis 3. Worse, it's a concept that totally flies in the face of the rest of the Bible, since God's entire Bible represents MASSIVE intervention with Satan's 'turn'.
Gladiator said-
Frankly the idea that Satan has ruled the world makes more sense. The snag is that he hasn’t ruled it for a time, as the Watchtower Society claims, but since the beginning of human time. He got the attention of the first humans, even before they had become parents, and turned them away from god. God’s immediate response was to hand rulership over to Satan; not for just a few years but from the very beginning until now. What a wimp. I have more respect for Satan’s character and cunning.
It's absolutely ludicrious, like a guy who builds a new type of vehicle from the ground up, designing and crafting all of the parts himself. Then when it's finished, someone alleges that he could drive it better than the guy who designed and built it, and the guy thinks about it for a moment and says, "You know, you may have a point there, so let's settle this idle bar bet right here and now! Even though I've just turned it on, here's the car keys: you're on!". So the builder hands the car keys over to the challenger!
Worse, there's nothing that precludes the same scenario from happening over and over again, since the next challenger just might be better than the last one, and how would anyone know if the builder didn't hand HIM the car keys so we could all find out?
It fails as a theodicy response to 'natural evil', since as I said before, God has NO PROBLEM repeatedly intervening to challenge Satan's reign in the Bible, so God's desires to shy away from intervention fails when used as an excuse, as if to avoid the appearance of tampering: God had no problem tampering before.
Of course, the FAR simpler answer is God's non-existence...
Gladiator said- Fortunately for me, it is all just a romping mythological yarn and as far detached from reality as Thor and Odin. No, hold on, much further than that. The magic of reality is so refreshing.
Not a day goes by when I'm not stunned by how insane the whole situation of believing in Gods and demons actually is; I feel like I'm living in Medieval times, where everyone's on the inside of a practical joke that never ends.
People CANNOT be that controlled, weak-minded, or so empty inside as need an imaginary being to fill the gaping void of their daily existence, can they? Apparently so....
Caliber said- we are caught in the middle of a battle for hearts and minds and universal rulership ....which was not God's desire or making from the begining
Who is "we"?
Who's "hearts and minds" are being battled over? Will there be a show of hands to decide the issue? Will those 250k dead be allowed to vote?
Hell, even the idea of mortals going to Heaven counteracts the US issue, since to be fair, people would know about God's promised offering of Heaven, and the souls wouldn't be allowed to GO to Heaven as a reward until AFTER Satan's trun was over.... YET ANOTHER Logical fail!
BTW, your "it was not God's desire" flies in the face of the beliefs and claims of other Xians: some would say that God knew about the Fall beforehand, being omniscient and all, but made the Universe anyway, knowing full-well that Adam would sin.
It's also a very childish argument, related to the cry of 5 yr olds everywhere, blaming the other by saying, "Well, you started it...."
Adam
If God did always intervene in human affairs and earth events would he need to do this .....yearly, daily or hourly? Man lives in an universe of cause and effect and must accept its consequences - Caliber
Caliber I wonder why you are reluctant to answer the question of how often you pray.
Is it safe to assume that you make requests of god? Do you ever pray for things like good health, a safe journey or protection from harm? Do you make similar requests on behalf of others?
Do you ever give thanks for your food or for other blessings? How about when you are just having a great day and enjoying some fine weather, do you give credit to god?
Have you ever asked god to help you find a new job or to pass an exam?
Any christian who does any of these things has destroyed all of your arguments over the last few pages. They believe that god intervenes daily and hourly in their lives and in the lives of millions of other christians.
When a quarter of a million people get drowned somewhere else in the world, suddenly theist god becomes deist god, restrained by the rules of a phoney war with one of his own creations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKqZjgIfxe0
Were his prayers unanswered or was it answered in one of these ways ?
1) No, I love you too much
2) yes ,but quite different from how you thought I would answer
3) Yes, but you'll have to wait
For God to hear our prayers must he always say yes by delivery today ?
Immediate answers to prayer. You want them. I want them. But God simply does not always work that way. And to get His best, we must be patient. In some cases, we must wait until 11:59 for His answer to come.
Sometimes God's greatest gifts are prayers to be answered in the future by future blessings... good things come to those that wait (even if it is in death)
"I guess the Lord knows what he's doing after all"
Any christian who does any of these things has destroyed all of your arguments over the last few pages. They believe that god intervenes daily and hourly in their lives and in the lives of millions of other christians.
Daily may we pray for strength , endurance and faith so not lose our joy and conviction of God's assured blessings
Let’s be honest, the god of the bible has so far used archaic methods of communication; stone tablets, prophets, angels, bellowing from the sky, and Chinese whispers. We even get messages from him via Tammy on JW.net
If emails were as hit and miss as communication with this god we would all go back to sending letters. Fortunately emails can be sent in the blink of an eye. They arrive uncorrupted and pristine with no misunderstanding or ambiguity. They can be sent to individuals or 250,000 people at the same time, if required. A reply can be made with the same accuracy. Not bad for a system invented by imperfect humans. Then we have the fantastic telephone; landline or mobile, take your pick.
Why doesn’t this god just admit that he has made a complete hash of communicating with humans? He should get up to speed and use some of the modern communication methods that humans do. For Christ’s sake, club together and buy this god an Apple tablet.
