The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

  • EdenOne


    I understand that many points have been addressed so far, but you keep asking me the same questions and I really have nothing else to add. I don't expect to "win" this argument with you, to convert you to christianity or anyone else for that matter. If you - or any anti-theist out there - considers their challenges still unanswered, then nothing has progressed since this thread was opened. I don't represent God in this thread, but I offered what persuades ME, and it may work for someone else, perhaps.


  • cofty

    Eden, thank you for explaining your views more fully.

    I have numbered your responses from this post...

    1-3 - So god can cause earthquakes, can prevent earthquakes but only some of them are deliberately casued by him in order to smite people.

    4 - God can forewarn his buddies about earthqaukes when he is using then to smite his enemies.

    5 - God can forknow all earthquakes but he might be caught by surprise by earthquakes that are not for the purpose of smiting. Sometimes he chooses not to know what is going on.

    Imagine a driver who lost control of his car on a wet road and kills a group of pedestrians becasue his tyres were bald and his brake pads were worn out. In court his defense was "I chose not to know about the condition of my car, therefore I am not responsible".

    6 - Since Jesus' resurrection god has not been involved in much.

    What are we supposed to do with this assertion? God isn't responsible for his inaction because he has gone fishing for the past 2000 years. Is anybody supposed to find this convincing?

    7 - Preventing a tsunami would rob people of free will whether or not to believe in him.

    This is wrong for so many reasons. For a start the issue is not believing or not believing it is whether or not to worship and obey him. Don't the "demons believe and shudder?" Evidence of god's existence in no way removes a person's free will regarding whether or not submit to him. How anybody can read the gospels and make this assertion is very puzzling. Did Jesus not perform all sorts of miracles to provide evidence of who he was? Did this rob anybody of free will and force them to obey him?

    Secondly god could have simply calmed the tsunami wave as it rose from the sea floor before any human was even aware it existed. He could have done his good works in secret motivated only by love. That is what I would have done. Why is god less loving than me?

    8 - This is a jumble of excuses. God might have a good reason for leaving 250 000 people to perish. If he stops tsunamis where does it stop? He offers the resurrection hope.

    Unless you can propose a sensible reason why letting a quarter of a million people drown was an act of love you are guilty of sophistry. The question only relates to suffering casued by the way god made the world. That is where it could stop, with god dealing with his own mistakes. The resurrection hope is demeaning to the value of human life. This life matters. You are selling a religion of death.

    9 - Earthquakes are necessary for life.

    I have answered this 5 or 6 times. Plate tectonics are necessary, earthquakes are not. We can have all the benefits of geology including mountains, with none of the hazards. Plates don't need to get stuck. Even if god is too dumb to design a world without earthquakes that still does not answer why he passively observed a tsunami drown 250 000 men, women and children on 26th December 2004

  • humbled

    You said it true, EdenOne: no one can answer for God in the matter of suffering.

    Even the one OT story comparable to the disaster of the tsunami (of the OT God showing mercy and giving warning before a (possibly?natural) disaster) was the Jonah story.

    But in this case God sent a man to warn the bloody Ninevites of impending doom unless they repented. But even though in that solitary episode when God's mercy outshone Jonah's, the account only confounds us in the present discussion.

    Jonah who wantedthe city destroyed, has God reprove him saying,"And for my part, ought I not to feel sorry for Nineveh the great city, in which there exist more than one hundred and twenty thousand men who do not at all know the difference between their right hand and their left, besides many domestic animals?"

    Why didn't God do it Boxing day 2004?

    The stories in the OT do not add up to a coherent whole so why wouldn't I struggle with the NT sories that people tell me grew out of it?

    Eden, I personally have this dilemma: without buying any of the dogmas attached to Christianity, I still confess my own experience of Jesus' life that made a new person of me. I was "saved"--but without any hope of heaven. I was saved in a practical and real way that has given me and, by extension,those around me a better life. Jesus rose above the OT dogma.

    Cofty, You have done me (maybe others) a service forcing a hard look at our biases. But I hope you allow that having established that the OT God teachings do not add up to anything you can hang a hat on you will allow that there still is the intrinsic need for love and fairness.

    The universal currency of love and fairness is so imbedded that it is the cause of the outrage on this thread...

    Where does that currency come from? I wish you would frame a thread along that line, cofty.

  • caliber

    Try to avoid using the words Einstein and anthropomorphism.-cofty

    Referring to God with words as...... pathetic , a buffoom, a tyrant,an impotant god,.... worse than Josef Mengle are of course is still acceptable

    Please feel free to use these words very liberally !!!!

  • snare&racket

    Ahh so you have read his autobiography then Caliber? The worst for me was when he drowned everyone on earth, all the old, the women, the children, the babies, the men, the cute 'ickle animals....all but 8 preachy people and a selection of animals somewhat representitive of the animals found in the middle east region of the time.... And all because he was in a bad mood. What a loveable guy, tee hee!

  • cofty

    The universal currency of love and fairness is so imbedded that it is the cause of the outrage on this thread... - Humbled

    That is a good observation Humbled.

    In view of events like the Asian tsunami we could conclude that our love and compassion does not originate with the god of theism.

    Christian theism teaches that the core of Jesus' teaching was the golden rule - "do unto others as you tem do unto you."

    It is central to christianity that Jesus was resurrected and appointed over all things.

    Why did Jesus not abide by his own teaching on the 26th December 2004?

  • tootired2care

    Why did Jesus not abide by his own teaching on the 26th December 2004?

    Here is a far out one.

    Maybe he couldn't. Remember the account in the book of Daniel where the angel Gabriel was blocked by the demon Prince of Persia, and needed the archangel to intercede. Perhaps all of the demons are so powerful now, that they put up an insurmountable obstacle for J & J (like those chariots of iron in the bronze age).

    I thought there was already a point for god was unable to, but I didn't see it in the most updated list. Perhaps that falls under #20 the retreat to deism. Rebuttal: then why call him God, if his creation is more powerful than him?

  • humbled

    Cofty, I am glad you brought up the Golden Rule.It is foundational to virtually all cultures in all ages. Not even original to Jesus or the Jews.

    The god of theism has trouble fitting into the skin of Jesus. It was an uncomfortable fit for Jesus as well.

    I suppose I am not a-------------(sorry gotta stop here , pipe brokewater spewing. will finish later. It froze.

  • cofty

    Nightmare! I hope you stop the leak Humbled.

    Take care.

  • adamah

    Humbled said-

    I suppose I am not a-------------(sorry gotta stop here , pipe brokewater spewing. will finish later. It froze.

    Interesting timing, just as he seemingly was about to say something pertaining to his beliefs. So, counting down the minutes until a believer claims the pipe bursting was an act of Divine intervention.

    The Ninevah account is interesting, since the Ninevites repented of their sins after being warned of the coming destruction by Jonah, and God supposedly save the city from destruction (even spinning it as having compassion for the 150k Ninevites).

    However, not 150 yrs later, and the book of Nehum records how the Ninevites are back to their evil ways of unrelenting violence and arrogance, and God THEN decides to destroy the city by allowing it to fall under the Babylonians. Clearly no Divine foresight on display there, huh?

    If I didn't know any better, you'd think the writers of the OT were looking around at the current events of their day (or the LACK of events, as it may be) of their day(s), and chalking everything up to "God Dun It!". In fact, it sounds ALOT like the same kind of post-hoc rationalization which seemingly still is in vogue with modern-day believers....

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