Disciplinary Actions

by Cold Steel 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  humbled

  thedog1,

  Go to the top of this page, click on "Search".Type in "How I left Jehovah's Witnesses/ Maeve Courteau"
• 

  rawe

  Hi Cold Steel,

  "During a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation? An advocate?"

  As others have answered, that would not be allowed.

  "Why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?"

  The elders who meet with an individual being judged are called a "judicial committee" however it is not like normal court proceedings. One of the first big problems with this quasi-judicial process is the men are untrained volunteers who for the most part have other secular responsibilities. Thus a lightly loaded elder body may put considerable effort into a case and carefully research both the Bible and Watchtower provided material to insure the best judgement possible is given (that is, at least consistent with how the system is suppose to work). However, it is just as possible, little time is available or case after case has frustrated the elders and there is a shift towards greater harshness. Cases are reviewed by HQs and Circuit Overseers, therefore there is some review, but local elders are usually quick to learn what is required to insure all the paper work for these cases are in order. Of course, the victim of the process gets to see none of the notes taken or content of the forms set to HQs.

  At elder's school sample cases are sometimes reviewed. I clearly recall one case, where local elders decided to wait for a congregation member to return from a motorcycle trip before they met and decided on the case. Their decision was ridiculed by the presenter at the school -- the not so subtle message was clear -- you *the elder* are in control, don't let the member dictate how the proceedings will happen.

  Then, there is something that is nearly completely insane about this entire enterprise. The "case" is not really about what the person did or did not do. Yes, of course, that is established at the outset, yes, sister so-and-so, you did commit fornication with so-and-so. But once that is established, the judgement is in regards to "repentance". In some cases this presents no problem, since the person has not "turned around" (i.e. stopped the proscribed behavior) and that is well established, a move to disfellowship will be in order. But in other cases, it essentially is a game of mind reading, trying to determine if the individual feels sorry for what they have done. Very subjective, especially for men who have no formal training in things like psychology or human sexaulity.

  Most cases involve "sexual sins", however folks who leave the faith can face reprisal for doing so (hence all the 'fading' talk you hear here). There is no time limit to this, but tends to orbit around signs of no longer being obedient to rules that govern members of the faith. Thus even after leaving for a year or two, someone who openly celebrates Christmas may find themselves subject to this process. Or consider the example of this forum itself. Some on the forum are active Witnesses. Absolutely none of what they post may be incorrect or even unfavorable towards the faith. Yet, if their posting became known it is entirely possible, that could land them in hot water that could eventually lead them to being disfellowshipped for apostasy!

  "It just doesn't seem right when the judges are the prosectors and YOU have no representation. It certainly doesn't seem fair."

  Of course! There are very good reasons why court systems in most countries work they way they do. Why everything spoken in court is recorded. How evidence is handled, how questions are asked and responded to, etc.

  "I understand, too, that you can appeal a decision to elders in a different KH. But have you ever known of a decision to be reversed? This isn't a rhetorical question; I really don't know. Also, if a person goes into a disciplinary court, if that person is humbly repentant, is that normally enough to get him/her off the hook? Or in many times has the decision already been made?"

  If a decision to disfellowshipped was appealed and the appeal committee overturned the decision the individaul would be informed. Regarding, "humbly repentant"... indeed, a young couple engaged to marry may have sex before they are married, if no one knew of this and they confessed, perhaps breaking down in tears, then a decision to "privately reprove" could be given.

  Cheers,

  -Randy
• 

  ADJUSTMENTS

  Thedog1 I truly respect you and your responses on this forum. With that said your first response was pretty loaded, but the Gopher hit the nail on the head! We all were sucked into this, as you so lovely stated, play to stay religion, and we all were, in a nut shell LIED to!!! It's hard to view it in that way but it's the truth. Wether our parents taught us because they were taught the same lie and there grandparents and so on, or someone came to us in the field and taught us the same lie they were taught... It's PRIDE that wants to keep us from believing what we were taught was the whole time all wrong and a lie, and everyone we ever defend the truth to might be right! It's a big pill to swallow but if you are truly humble as the bible speaks about you can swallow it. I had to go through this process and still am and it's getting a little easier. So you were an elder and was taught to reason as such with so called bible based scriptures, such as the CLASSIC one you used given to you by WBATS and misapplied horribly: to remove the WICKED man from among yourselves... That word WICKED is a very strong word to just throw around at someone and use it loosely. WICKED is not 99% of the cases that come before the elders. WICKED would be almost satan himself coming before you. It's someone who is unrepentant, meaning they did not repent to GOD, not mere imperfect men, and they are continuing in their sinful course and are not going to repent to GOD in the foreseeable future, so someone like that needs to be removed! someone like that you don't need to DISCERN repentance because they have expressed being unrepentant so clearly! Someone like that will not even come before the elders to allow them to discern anything... So someone who comes before the elders usually has already repented to GOD and all they need to do is confess and recieve some sort of spiritual comfort and direction from the older men in the congregation greasing them with oil, not JUDGEMENT! I don't care how many times they err, it's not for man to JUDGE! I'm sure if every person that has erred who did not go before the elders with there errors there would be no more JWs because everyone would be d'fd! So because of this there are a lot of depressed, low self esteem, guilty JWs walking around because they did not confess their sins to the elders due to the probabilty of being judged, d'fd, and torn away from their family and friends. This is the only thing I think CATHOLICS got right (sarcastically speaking) with the confessionals. Most JWs if they were d'fd would never return so that's the real issue facing elders. So in a nutshell no man is qualified to judge another man. This is most vivid in most secular JUDICIAL systems were the blind scales are NEVER balanced!!!
• 

  cantleave

  Thedog1 - I appreciate the candour of your responses.
• 

  Oubliette

  thedog1: Each time the goal was to discern if the person was repentant according to scriptural standards.

  What you mean is: " the goal was to discern if the person was repentant according to WTBTS standards " as published in the secret Elders Manual, Shepherd the Flock of God.

  thedog1: We certainly pray for [Holy Spirit] when making decisions. Do you feel that in your case the JC did not believe you were genuine?

  Being "genuine" is good, but does not prove that Holy Spirit has anything to do with it.
• 

  Oubliette

  This is for thedog1:

  • PROOF: JWs are NOT "God's Organization!" - (When Apostates Get Reinstated)

  Where is Holy Spirit when apostates get reinstated? Does Holy Spirit approve? Or is Holy Spirit just not involved with this organization? Maybe Holy Spirit doesn't even exist!
• 

  DATA-DOG

  To DOG1,

  I understand where you are coming from. I have a couple of Elders that I am close to, and they really believe that the HOLY Spirit overshadows all JW Elder proceedings. The point that I raised and was accused of apostasy for was this:

  How can you say that you are following the "scriptural guidelines" when making appointments, or following the Holy Spirit, when you let man-,ade procedures take precedent? I even asked, " If a Brother meets all the "scriptural" qualifications, will he still be passed over because he does not get quite enough visible field service time?" They looked me in the eye and said, " Yes." This was right after going on and on about how we only follow the scriptures and doing your best is enough. For a JW, being exemplary is whatever the BOE and C.O says it is. That "guideline" comes straight from the top.

  I also asked, " So if the Holy Spirit leads every meeting, who screwed up when a mistake is made? You know, like when a child molester is appointed as a MS or Elder, or someone is DF'd wrongfully? Was that the Holy Spirit? Or GOD? Or Jesus? Who messed up? How can you claim to be following the leadings of the Holy Spirit when your first step is to refer to a man-made rule book?" [ Crickets.......]

  DD
• 

  StephaneLaliberte

  Hello theDog1,

  In one of your posts, you stated that Jehovah’s Witnesses chose to be baptized and thus, should play by the rules.
  Please consider the following: I got baptized before the age of 14. Back then, I was convinced of what I was thought:
  1. the end was around the corner since the generation of 1914 was growing old
  2. The 144 000 were already selected since 1931 and thus, the remaining number partaking was a real indication of our proximity to the end. No new (non-replacement) anointed the number of anointed was going down since 1931.

  Please note that these things were not mere suggestions provided by the society, they were facts and I accepted them as such. The faithful and discreet slave, made up of thousands and thousands of wise Christians on whose Jehovah’s spirit acted upon, came as one to these conclusions. Who was I to question them all? I was a kid. So, there I was, convinced that Armageddon would come before I’d finish high school.

  I even remember going door to door, believing I was separating goats from sheep and thought on numerous occasions: this person will never make it through Armageddon.

  Then, from time to time, I was comparing my religion to others thinking: Which other religions

  1. Sets up a book study group for its members,
  2. Isn't greedy to the point of accepting credit cards,
  3. Is not involved with the governments and much less with the UN
  4. Does not brainwash kids with games, cartoons, and other things for that purpose
  5. Does not add to the scriptures by inserting images and religious teachings in the bible

  All these understandings above were not small details, they had a great impact on my life. And now that the watchtower has done away with ALL of these, how can we truly say that the organization I got baptized into is the same today?

  Since then, I have come a long way in my understanding of the scriptures and, unfortunately, do not have the freedom to truly express my faith – doing so would cause a Judicial Comity. The irony is that I still share many of the watchtower’s teachings!

  I can’t help but wonder by which authority any man, or group of man, can judge the faith of his fellow man, especially when it comes down to details such as bringing into question the “generation” teaching or even referring to the “144 000” as a figurative number. How an organization does this and still profess to be an organisation guided by love goes beyond my understanding.

  Sincerely,

  Ecan6
• 

  thedog1

  Ecan6, I have sent you a pm
• 

  thedog1

  Have to go now, hope to respond more later today or tomorrow.