Have JWs and other Christians completely missed the point of Matthew 24:4-8?

by Island Man 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  fulltimestudent

  OK, lets examine the text and the interpretation of the "brother" (non-jw) that Island man cites.

  In reading the cited explanation, the first thing that (for me) jumped out of the thoughts of the correspondent was this:

  what was the first thing to come out of Jesus’ mouth? “Look out that nobody misleads YOU”. Why? Evidently, the thing uppermost on Jesus’ mind in answering their question was to safeguard them against being misled about exactly when that time would come.

  This seems a reasonable conclusion. But think, as far as we can judge, the so-called Matthew gospel was written some 30+ years after an historical Jesus could have uttered those words. We know nothing at all about Matthew's later career as an apostle. The WTS (Aid p.1122) claims that he is mentioned by Paul (1 Cor. 15:5), but that reference is a general statement that the writer of this document ( 1 Cor) believed that Jesus appeared 'to the twelve,' after his resurrection, and that neccessarily that included Matthew.

  But effectively, Matthew has disappeared from history, his only claim to fame is that there is a gospel account bearing his name. Did he write it, or did one of his 'converts/students' write it and called it after his teacher, or somebody else?

  Either way, it is clearly (and admitted) that a full three years teaching by a master to his disciples would contain volumes of text, an impossible task to record and control. So the Markan account merely says that his account would tell the 'good news,' the Lukan account is more ambitious, this author wants to offer, 'a statement of the facts' to the 'most excellent Theophilus,' and the Johannine account, jumps right into a radical re-interpretation of the other accounts. But Matthew wants his account to be the 'book of history', but it will include only that material that the author thinks important.

  What is clear therefore, is that each account is selective. Each account offers what the writer thinks is important and each writer filters it through his experience of Christianity up to that point in time and with his particular audience in mind. It can be suggested then that the material included is designed to suit the targeted audience. That's particularly clear with the Lukan account, and while unstated its clear that the Johannine account is aimed squarely at a more educated 'class' of people, who likely were educated in Hellenic thought and practise.

  My preamble is important. The target audience must be considered, because the selection of information and its presentation will be 'slanted' to meet the needs of the audience.

  In regard to the thoughts of the 'christian' at, http://meletivivlon.com/2012/12/18/wars-and-reports-of-wars-a-red-herring/ - we need to think about Matthew's version of these claimed sayings of Jesus, and compare them to the other accounts to see whether the 'thoughts' of that person are worthy of consideration.
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  fulltimestudent

  Now to compare the texts. Matthew and Mark both stress that this was a private conversation. i.e. not to the general public, no reason for that is given, but remember the record is 30+ years later. There may be circumstances that made it important for Matthew and Mark to stress that, because Luke who clearly has only one person in mind when writing, sees no point in stressing the privacy of the conversation. We can no longer identify the reason for M and M to say that.

  The Matthew account states (24:4 NIV) Jesus answered:

  “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.’

  Is this a prophecy (forewarning) by Jesus, or is the writer filtering Jesus’ conversation through the subsequent experiences of early Christianity. And, verses 5 and 6 can be interpreted as explaining the reason for placing that warning in the mouth of Jesus.

  ‘For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.’

  The Mark account says much the same:

  ‘6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.’

  But the Lukan version (Luke 21:8), (if he was redacting earlier accounts, say the Markan version) words it a little differently:

  ‘8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.” ’

  Each version clearly marks a change in thought by saying,

  ‘the end is still to come.’

  And then goes on to relate the real sign.

  But before we go on, I’d like to point out that the Romans, who been the major influence in the world of that time, lived by war. (And, continued to do so even after becoming nominally Christian). Roman General Pompey had brought Palestine under Roman control circa 63 BCE, so floating around the ‘civilised’ world of that time, there would always have been talk of ‘wars and rumours of wars.’

  The Mathean version starts the real sign in verse 7, the Markan version in verses 8, and the Lukan in verse 10.

  The person referred to by Meleti Vivlon fails, to recognise that break that occurs in each of the three accounts.

  That’s how I’ve always understood the reading of the texts, (and the way that I understood the WTS to explains it. Concentrating on the Matthew account only, verses 4 to 6 are a sort of preamble, but verse 7 is the start of the requested ‘sign’ that verse 3 says the disciples requested.

  The sign did not need to be centuries later, it could’ve (indeed was) been mere decades later, as the Lukan version (vs 32) makes clear:

  32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”

  Which brings the whole thing undone because, the generation in which Luke locates the sign, i.e. the generation he was speaking to, the generation in which Jesus expected ‘all things occur.’

  The meditative student that Meleti Vivlon speaks of has drawn a wrong conclusion, as have all Christians since that first generation passed away, which may be the reason why the Johannine version omits this account altogether. If written after the Revelation, it’s a bit difficult to write about the generation that saw Jesus, seeing all things occurring, when they all (or, nearly all) are dead, and the Romans are still ruling the world.

  Contemporary JWs have the same problem with the word generation.
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  Cold Steel

  Well, Jesus says these things will be signs of his coming, but adds that the end is not yet but are the beginning of sorrows. This already is being fulfilled, but like the seasons, one has to know the signs. We've seen the wars, the fire and smoke in the wars that have taken place already. But even now the end is not yet. The Jews are still flowing into Israel but they have yet to build their temple (Rev. 11). The beast, or Antichrist, has not been revealed, nor the false prophet, nor the two prophets to be raised up to defend Judah.

  We see these things working to these ends, and even atheists have to admit that prophecies are taking place. Two hundred years ago, who thought that Israel would be restored as the prophets foretold? How could anyone have predicted it? Isaiah wrote: "Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once?" (Isa. 66:7-8) Yet the nation of Israel was born in a day, and it was brought forth all at once.

  Once the Jewish temple is built, the return of Jesus can be measured in not only a single generation, but in just a matter of years. The United States is too strong to allow any nation or kingdom to threaten Israel now, which means that it will no longer be a superpower when the beast arises. In fact, the beast will be largely unopposed when he rises.
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  caroline77

  Now that Israel is now back in the land the next thing to happen (I think) is told in Zechariah 14.

  If the Jews start to build a temple, where will they want to put it, and what problems would that cause?
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  DeWandelaar

  Have you ever considered that Matthew is written AFTER the actual events took place? It therefore was never a prophecy ( revelation of conditioned events to come).
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  Bobcat

  Island Man:

  You make a good point. The disciples wanted to know when the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem that Jesus had just foretold. (Mt 23:33-24:2) Jesus was telling them in 24:4-8 that wars, earthquakes, famines and plagues would not be indicators of when the calamity would come.

  Why give such a non-sign? It was because people of those days viewed such events, in particular, as harbingers of God's wrath. So Jesus is telling them that events such as those would not be an indication of 'When these things will be.' (24:3) The event that would indicate "when" was described in 24:15. And Jesus said that they could expect it before the then present "generation" 'passed away.' (24:32-34)

  Revelation chapter follows a similar motif. Following Jesus' crowning in 33 AD, which begins the march to his return and his eventual conquering of all his enemies (vv.1, 2), it foretells wars (vv.3, 4), famines (vv.5, 6), and death by sword, famine, plagues, and wild beasts (vv.7, 8), all of which were typically viewed by people as indicators of God's wrath. (Timewise, these things would parallel the ousting of Satan in chapter twelve and the woe for the earth and sea that was foretold to occur as a consequence. Compare 12:7-12.)

  Yet, the 'souls' that cry out for justice in verses 9-11 ask, 'When will justice finally take place?' They are not calculating when the end will come based on the wars, famines, etc that were just described. Their cry for justice inserted into the account, and the answer they are given indicated that something else ("the number was filled also of their fellow slaves . . . who were about to be killed") had to finish before then end came. Rev. 7:1-8 explains more of the details of that.

  Incidentally, Matthew 24 is not describing the same things as Revelation 6. Matthew 24:4-35 specifically describes what would happen to the Jewish temple and the city of Jerusalem (including the Jewish nation). Revelation 6 describes from Jesus' crowning to his still future return. Yet a similar pattern to Matthew 24 exists in the Revelation 6 account. This causes many to think that Matthew 24 is describing the very same thing as Revelation 6. Matthew 24:4-35 is instructive in showing a pattern that is followed in Revelation, but problems occur if one tries to map the one over the other since the things in the Matthew account are specific to the 1st century.

  Take Care
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  QC

  Bobcat: This causes many to think that Matthew 24 is describing the very same thing as Revelation 6. Matthew 24:4-35 is instructive in showing a pattern that is followed in Revelation, but problems occur if one tries to map the one over the other since the things in the Matthew account are specific to the 1 st century.

  I agree, and disagree. We can tell which is which.

  Some things clearly were not meant for the 1st century; Jesus gives local (Jerusalem’s 70 CE destruction) as well as a future projection:

  Mat. 24,

  • great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world … never to be equaled again. (future)
  • the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (future)
  • see…the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (future)
  • This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (dual, local/future)
  • as in the days that were before the flood… Noah entered into the ark. (future)

  Rev 6,7:

  • kings …great men…rich men…chief captains…mighty men…bondman…every free man, hid themselves (awaiting)
  • the great day of his wrath is come (awaiting)
  • four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds (could be happening)
  • Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God (awaiting)

  Mt 24: AV

  • 21 …there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again NIV
  • 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  • 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
  • 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
  • 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
  • 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

  Re 6: AV

  • 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
  • 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

  Re 7: AV

  • 1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
  • 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
  • 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

  The Society was in position to be helpful, but Judasized (coined lol), became a traitor like Judas.
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  Bobcat

  QC:

  Nice to here from you.

  I posted here on Mt 24:29-31 and its 1st century fulfillment.

  I used to think that Matthew 24:4-35 had a dual fulfillment. But I definitely don't anymore. (See here and here.) But I do hold that Matthew 24:36-25:46 pertains to Jesus' "parousia" and "the conclusion of the system of things." So we are partly in agreement, just as you said.

  Take Care
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  QC

  Still checking your latest understanding of Mat 24-25/Lu 21. Nice effort, first read seems to have merit. I'll munch on it a bit more.
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  yadda yadda 2

  This interpretation was put forward in Jonsonn and Herbst's book a long time ago: