The 1914 generation is still going strong 100 years later - 2014 study article.

by THE GLADIATOR 443 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • TD
    TD
    I do not view our discussion in terms of winning an argument.

    I don't either and I'm truly sorry if I'm coming across that way. Like I said, it doesn't really matter what I think. As the unbelieving spouse of a JW, I'm pretty much the lowest of the low in the JW world.

    I realize that there are active JW's who would disagree with me, but you and I both know that there are an appalling amount of active JW's with very little academic interest in their religion. What really matters is what JW writers have put into print and why.

    If I've said something you strongly disagree with, don't view it as an argument. Give me a chance to flesh out the assertion with sources.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    I'm truly sorry if I'm coming across that way.

    I did not mean that. I was refering to myself. I meant what I said.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    TD

    I realize that there are active JW's who would disagree with me, but you and I both know that there are an appalling amount of active JW's with very little academic interest in their religion. What really matters is what JW writers have put into print and why.

    You do not see it TD. They have a reason for their faith. Without some form of irefutable evidence from God, there would be no solid basis for faith, only emotional experience, psychosis, a bunch of books from a Bible house, teachings of men, interpretations, etc.

    Again, it is not about you.r. teaching. You have your teachings, they have theirs. Jews have their teachings, Jws have theirs. Jewish beliefs do not iinvalidate Christain teachings. Both positions can be argued. Both reach a different conclusion interpreting the same evidence. It is not about disagreeing with you persoanlly or with your teaching. JWs position stands prima facie. Your teaching does not invalidate theirs.

    I have to admit that what you post is very interesting and mentally challenging to me. It takes me hours or days and longer just to understand the significance of what you say. It is very profound. With that said, the Apostles could have been shaken from their faith or expecatations but even if they could rationalize or justify conduct, mentally, the evidence that Jesus was the Messiah was irefutable.

  • TD
    TD
    Again, it is not about your teaching. You have your teachings, they have theirs.

    I think you and I might be talking past each other. When I say that it doesn't matter what I believe personally, it is exactly with the type of observation you've made above in mind. My personal beliefs are simply not relevant to a discussion about JW eschatology and I've been honest about that.

    What this in mind, I have not promoted my own personal teachings/beliefs on this thread.

    When I say that the "Great Crowd" must live to see the "Great tribulation" that's not what I personally believe. That's what was explicitly stated in print in JW publications. I haven't just made it up.

    When I say that the "Other sheep" and "Great crowd" are identical during the time of the end, that's not what I personally believe. That has been said over and over and over in official JW publications.

    When I say that the "Heavenly hope" was the only hope for Christians from Pentecost clear up into the early 20th century, that's not what I personally believe. That's what has been explicitly stated in official JW publications.

    When I say that typology was an accepted interpretational method used by JW writers for many, many years, that is not simply personal opinion or speculation. There is a good discussion on this in the publication All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial, which was a standard biblical textbook among JW's for years and years. There are similar discussions in 50's and 60's era issues of The Watchtower.

    The only editorializing I've done at all on this thread is to point out what happens when a valid interpretational method (Like typology) is abandoned in favor of an ad hoc approach

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    " Jewish beliefs do not invalidate christain teachings "______Fisherman.

    How nice. BUT........ Jehovah's Witnesses invalidate all other religions

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    " Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that thier religion is the only right one ?

    The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. "_____Reasoning from the Scriptures book page 203

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    Here's a few more WT quotes for laughs

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    " Why are there so many religions ?

    Many factors have contributed to the development of new religious groups. Some have said that the various religions all represent different ways of presenting religious truth. But a comparison of thier teachings and practices with the Bible indicates , rather, that the diversity of religions is because people have become followers of men instead of listening to God."______Reasoning from the Scriptures book page 322

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    "( Regaurdless of whom a group profess to worship, if they hold to doctrines of men instead of the inspired word of God, thier worship is in vain.)"____Reasoning from The Scriptures Book page 323

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    " ( People may have God's written word but lack accurate knowledge of what it contains, because they have not been taught properly. They are zealous for God, but they may not be doing what he requires. Their worship is not going to please God, is it ? )"_____Reasoning from the Scriptures Book page 323

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    LOL. Brought to you by the makers of " Nu lite "

    Pot meet kettle . Kettle meet pot

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  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    TD,

    Whether or not you personally believe what you teach is not the point. You teach that the Olivet discourse prophetic application applies only to the original audience. You also teach that the original audience means all related christians back then including the Apostles, and that it is not relevant what audience actually was present at the Olivet. You also teach that the wts is using a prophetic parallel method you describe to derive their modern day "antitypical" parallel fullfilment of the Olivet.

    All you are simply saying is, broadly speaking, that Jesus' Olivetic prophecy has no parallel fulfilment in our time, sort of speak. The wts disagrees. All that the Jews are saying is that JC was a fraud. The wts disagrees. I am focusing on this statement "The parallel falls apart with the pasage of time.." Let's have the wheels touch land at this point.

    God cannot be seen with a ruler. His existence cannot be measured scientifically because He is not of physical substance. Believing that He is real is a personal conclusion. Jws trust in the wts is a personal conclusion. I do not think you see it.

    I respect your academic aproach. It is very intersting, enriching, and mentally challenging.

    At some point the prophecy (parallel), [wheels touch land] must (should) be fulfilled. That is the bottom line TD, I am considering all that you have said. I am sure you see I follow your logic.

    thin king

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    At some point the prophecy (parallel), [wheels touch land] must (should) be fulfilled.

    The point of this thread is to discern if the proclamation by the WTS. that wheels touch land

    in 1914 is valid according to bible Scripture and known historical occurrences in the 20th. century.

    We've tried with all sincerest honesty to bring forward factual information to established that the WTS.

    created the return of Christ/End times doctrine as a viable means to attract attention to its own published works

    by amateurish self endeavored theology and to commercialize what they created.

    The WTS. not only created attention to its literature by this means but over time built up a circumvented

    amount of power toward the top editorial writers (GB) of this publishing house, done so with unreserved apathetic and

    pretentious arrogance.

  • kaik
    kaik

    I agree with Finkelstein that this threat shows how unbiblical and man made is the 1914 year as is proclaimed by WTS. 1914 date under deep analysis with Scriptures fails on Acts 1:9-11, Matthew 24:27, Luke 17:20-37, etc. It was until 1920's, when WTS moved the parousia from 1874 to 1914. It built entire theology on that year. Nowhere The Scriptures match with a teaching propagated by obscure religious group in country that past 200 years produced various doom cults. For its own convenience, the unverified return became invisible, but only apparent to them [WTS].

    WTS claims that parousia started in October of 1914, yet WWI was already in full 3 months in progress and had several major battles. WTS continues to claim that we are at the Great Tribulation (lasting for 100 Years) with Armageddon just beyond the corner. I remember around 1980 some JW even thought that Armageddon will be in 1989 (1919+70), as the generation of 1914 was getting 100 year old. 25 years later, we are still here!

    Either WTS would continue maintain 1914 (which I doubt it will but not until 10-20-30 years later), or come up with new doom day, which would again create a sense of urgency to preach and distribute new literature.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    6

    You may find this of interest. Taken from Can Jehovah's Witnesses Survive? by Trevor Willis. Formatting not preserved.

    LATE FOR A VERY IMPORTANT DATE

    Pastor Russell’s Society - 1887 to 1917

    To fully understand why the Watchtower Society has found it necessary to adopt their present teachings we must go back to the early days of the movement. A man named Charles Taze Russell, known as Pastor Russell, was born in 1852 in Pittsburg, America. He was a sincere man with a keen desire to understand the Bible. In 1879 he began to gather others with the same interest and by 1881 he had formed the original the Watchtower Society. This group became known as The International Bible Students. It would be many years before they adopted the name ‘Jehovah's Witnesses.’

    This small group who were sometimes referred to as Russellites, started to make predictions regarding the end of the world system. A book entitled ‘TheTimeis at Hand’ followed in 1889. The title of this book emphasised the weakness that was to become a flaw in the Watchtower Society as the years passed – their obsession with time. This book declared that Jesus Christ had already begun his presence since 1873 and would return to gather his chosen ones to heaven in 1914. Pastor Russell, along with his followers, expected to be taken to heaven to become part of Christ’s heavenly priesthood and government in 1914. The battle of Armageddon was to follow and bring an end to all religious and political set-ups. This date was arrived at by various calculations and guesswork, designed to prove that the Gentile Times would end in 1914. The Gentile Times being the time period that the non-Jewish nations would dominate the earth for. The quotes shown here are from Series II but are the same as printed in Series I:

    True it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be over thrown and dissolved; but we are living in a special and peculiar time, the ‘Day of Jehovah,’ in which matters culminate quickly; and it is written, ‘A short work will the Lord make upon the earth. The Time is at Hand - series II - pages 98, 99

    In view of the strong bible evidence concerning the times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the Kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915. Then the prayer of the church, ever since her Lord took his departure – ‘Thy Kingdom Come’ – will be answered; and under that wise and just administration, the whole earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord – with knowledge and righteousness, and peace (Psalms 72:19; Isaiah 6:3; Habakkuk 2:14) and then the will of God shall be done ‘on earth as it is in Heaven.Time is at Hand - series II - pages 98, 99

    Be not surprised, then when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of God’s Kingdom is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Revelation 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God’s word. Time is at Hand - series II - page 101

    In the preceding chapters we presented evidence showing that the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ or their lease of domination, will run out with the year A.D. 1914 and at that time they will be overturned and Christ’s Kingdom fully established. That the Lord must be present, and set up his Kingdom, and exercise great power so as to dash the Nations to pieces as a potters vessel, is then clearly fixed. Time is at Hand - series II - page 170

    Pastor Russell understood that Christ’s return would mean the restoration of Israel to their homeland as promised to Abraham. An entire chapter, entitled ‘Parallel Dispensations’ was devoted to providing scriptural proof that God had promised Israel would one day return to take possession of their land:

    But we must remember that the year A.D. 1878 was but the turning point of returning favour to fleshly Israel. We have already learned, from our study of ‘The Times of the Gentiles’, that Jerusalem and its people will continue to be trodden down – controlled and oppressed by the Gentiles ‘until the Times of the Gentiles be fulfilled,’ and hence, though favour was due to begin in A.D. 1878, the Jew will not be received back into full favour until after 1915. Time is at Hand - series II - page 221

    Large portions of the Old Testament were devoted to describing the return of Israel to their homeland as well as references in the New Testament. The Society's basic teachings were Bible based but went far beyond the things written in the Bible and claimed to know when these things would happen; also they claimed that only those in their group would go to heaven with Jesus. They condemned all Christendom for refusing to agree with their time keeping. Many pages of this book were spent giving minute details of how these dates were arrived at, several charts were drawn and dozens of scriptural texts were manipulated into place to back up these predictions. The Watchtower magazine then known as Zion’s Watchtower kept its readers up to date with world events. Social, financial and political events on an international scale were monitored and given Biblical significance. Over the following two years the Watchtower magazine repeated the expectation:

    The date of the close of that ‘battle’ is definitely marked in the Scriptures as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874. The Watchtower 15 January 1892

    We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. Bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the view presented in the WATCHTOWER of January 15, 1892. We advise that it be read again. The Watchtower 15July 1894

    Needless to say 1914 passed without these things occurring. Conveniently for Pastor Russell, World War I broke out giving his Society something to point to as a major event arriving on schedule. The fact that he had not predicted such an event was not important – something had happened! This was to be used to great effect for decades to come. The Society published a new book in 1986 which stated:

    As far back as 1876 Jehovah's Witnesses realized that bible prophecy marked the year 1914 C.E. as a time when major events would take place that would have far reaching effects on human affairs. They gave reason for this wide publicity. True Peace and Security - How Can You Find It? 1986 - page 70

    Throughout the years and until this day they give all members the impression that they were entirely correct in their prophecies concerning 1914. Only those who take the trouble to read what was really said will know – they were entirely wrong! Israel did not return to their homeland. The members of the Society were not taken to heaven. Christ did not come and destroy all political and religious organizations. In a rare moment of honesty, in 1930 the Watchtower Society admitted:

    All of the Lord’s people looked forward to 1914 with joyful expectation. When that time came and passed there was much disappointment, chagrin and mourning and the Lord’s people were greatly in reproach. They were ridiculed by the clergy and their allies in particular, and pointed to with scorn, because they had said so much about 1914, and what would come to pass, and their ‘prophecies’ had not been fulfilled. LightBook I - 1930 - page 194

    The Witnesses own Bible had warned about false prophets who speak in the name of Jehovah:

    The prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: ‘How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?’ when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him. Deuteronomy18:20-22NewWorldTranslation

    Impostors will come claiming to be messiahs or prophets, and they will produce great signs and wonders to mislead even God’s chosen, if such a thing were possible. See, I have forewarned you. Matthew24:23-25– The New English Bible

    By 1916 it was apparent that the date had not brought the fulfilment of these major prophecies. By then more than 1,500,000 copies had been sold. A series II was produced. The quotes shown earlier are from series II but are the same as series I. The forward explained:

    This was a natural mistake to fall into, but the Lord overruled it for the blessing of his people. The thought that the church would all be gathered to glory before 1914 certainly did have a stimulating and sanctifying effect upon thousands, all of whom accordingly can praise the Lord – even for the mistake. Time is at Hand - series II - page IV

    To ‘praise the Lord - even for the mistake,’ gave the impression that God was in some way involved in the false prophecy, which the final paragraph in the book had called ‘an unquestionable certainty.’ In October 1916 Pastor Russell died having sold his family business and donated a total of $250,000 to the Society, a fortune in those days.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    marked

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