Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

by Watchtower-Free 223 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • adamah
    adamah

    Cofty said-

    So are you saying that Rome invented Jesus, successfully kick-started a new peace-and-love, render unto Ceasar cult, but it was so successful Rome then started throwing them to the lions, but then later made it the official religion?

    I'm confused.

    I can't speak for Atwill's hypothesis, but from what I understand, the target for the newly-developed religion of Christianity was Jews, who HAD to convert or face death: THEY were the initial prospective converts to Christianity (which the NT reflects in Jesus' words to preach to Jews).

    Of course, Paul's exporting of the beliefs to Gentiles was a loss of containment of a weaponized virus, and it spread throughout the Roman Empire (collateral damage) amongst some influential members of society who were NOT supposed to take it up.

    "Pay Caesars things to Caesars, but God's things to God" was an acceptable concession to Jews, since the Romans were willing to let them to believe what they wanted as long as they could be controlled (much like the way people view Moslem extremists who blow themselves up); the problem was for Roman citizens to suddenly consider THEIR God NOT to be Caesar, but this foreign Hebrew God, Jehovah. THAT would explain why Christians were prosecuted in Rome; they were viewed as traitors who abandoned the State God.

    Besides, if this WAS the plan, it failed miserably: otherwise there wouldn't have been a Bar Kochba Jewish rebellion/revolt (circa 130CE), with the costly and bloody Roman-Jewish war.

    I don't know how the hypothesis handles gnosticism: that seems like the flavor of Christianity that should've been preferred, since it was less militant than extremist Judaism (or even orthodox Christianity, with it's stubborn willingness to die for Christ, since the gnostics generally saw martyrdom as a waste, as a violation of God's gift of life since they could simply pledge an oath to Caesar and get off scot-free). I suppose it's possible that an attempt at control spurred fan fiction, as well: that's what the gnostic texts are, being third-generation fan fiction.

    Regardless of such plots by the Romans, many Jews WERE killed at the hands of Christians, both in the short-term and in the millenia that followed.

    I don't know if Atwill's hypothesis really offers anything all that helpful to resolving the dilemma of how so many different flavors of Christianity quickly developed: it's hard enough to get others to accept one's pamphlets today, as any JW can tell you.

    The hypothesis requires a belief in the existence of the sort of duplicitious masterminds that I just find a bit too hard to swallow (it's a bit too much 'conspiracy hypothesis' for my tastes)....

    Adam

  • metatron
    metatron

    I'll offer my opinion and you can ridicule as you wish.

    We keep running into an assumption that almost no one acknowledges or discusses about human history and it makes no sense to me - that we are alone and that there is no intervention from other worlds.

    So, we have the religious view that God intervened once in a while. Then we have the 'atheist' view that nobody but humans did anything.

    It looks like both groups are just spinning stories about the past without hard knowledge of what the heck our situation in the cosmos actually is. Until we figure that out, it's all just speculation. I can only hope I survive to a time in which we know for sure.

    metatron

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    That's not ridicule worthy. :)

  • designs
    designs

    Remember how several contemporary world powers gave weapons and training to ethnic/religious factions to gain power in a region, and also at the same time weaken the ruling authority then in time they found themselves fighting those they trained. Sort of like that.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    I now read Paul and he seems very much like a Roman on a mission for Rome ......

    He is largely responsible for the NT and its roman flavoured paganism. What a coincidence he used to kill christians and never even met jesus , he came 30 years after him but had a lot to say, with lots of attitude and crazy talk.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Designs said-

    Remember how several contemporary world powers gave weapons and training to ethnic/religious factions to gain power in a region, and also at the same time weaken the ruling authority then in time they found themselves fighting those they trained. Sort of like that.

    You mean like how the U.S. supported the Taliban in Afghanistan so they could drive out the USSR, and now we're fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan? Yeah, it happens....

    Still not sure how that fits into Christianity as psych ops to make the extremist Jews more docile?

    Adam

  • DJS
    DJS

    Standy for Pure Worship,

    Ditto not even being close. I couldn't give a rip about this guy's book; I've studied this topic for years, even when I was a Dub. Years ago in my under-grad I took a classs on the search for the historical jesus. It was taught by a man with a PhD who was also a Methodist minister. Even he diidn't believe the bibliical account. Non-theists look for facts and a body of evidence, we don't salivate at one person's opinion. And you seem to grossly underestimate the time, study and meditation non-theists have given this topic before they became non-theists.

  • friendaroonie
    friendaroonie

    It still seems a bit early to either criticize or defend the findings. Already things like conspiracy theory are being tossed about before the evidence has been examined. And I read this whole thread and I did not find a single personal attack on tec or "tammy" by anybody. But I did see a lot of condescending and passive agressive comments FROM tec to another poster's beliefs or even another group of posters. To say that Tammy already has her mind made up about the conclusion of an investigation before she even looks at the svidence seems to be an established fact after this thread as anybody can plainly see. But that is not a personal attack on her charater. That is just affirming the label that she herself probably owns with pride - and that is the label of apologist. She has reasons for believing in Jesus that dont depend on any external evidence just like me. But in my caseiI already reject the bible in its entirety and I openly tell peolle that my experience should not serve as evidence for anybody else but me. And whether jesus was a real humanor not doesnt matter to me and whether iI call jesus jesus god dog or puss and boots doesnt mattsr a flip.

    But anyway, I am open to give this.evidence a.good go around.before I call it truth or shenanigans or something in between. And I have a feeling that no matter how solid the textual evidence is Tammy will never let it sway her beliefs one bit.sorru girl. But you know its true. What gets me is how a perskn can gather enough critical thinking to leave the watchtower just to become an apllogist for another brand name. To me that is not a revolution so much as it is simlle apostacy. A revolutionary change would involve a complete change in thinking process, a total upside down of what it is that convinces a persln of reality and fantasy. And most importantly a rational and balanced and humble and modest admission that I do not know ANYTHING for 100% for sure. Even whether god exists, unicorns exist, this sentence exists and smjrfs really walk out of kingdom halls. I like to say that this sane admission is an asterisk or footnote or parenthetical statement after everything I say think write or do. It keeps me from being dogmatic, it keeps me from being attached to my beliefs and it keeps me both open minded and skeptical about everything.

  • friendaroonie
    friendaroonie

    I admit I could be wrong about everything. No, im PROBABLY wrong about everything. Also there is no such thing as a historical fact.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I heard the Holocaust didn't happen either.

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