by Englishman 77 Replies latest jw friends
I welcome immigrants who 1. Learn some English, and mix with the natives and get to know them. 2. Rent/buy private housing with their own money. 3. Have some qualifications/skills and work for a living paying tax, which helps the country. 4. Abide by the laws of the land and have respect for their fellow countryman and the culture and heritage of the natives.
Seems reasonable to me!
Englishman
Eman and Nemesis--
I agree. Nemesis your last statement seems reasonable enough, and I want you to know I wholeheartedly agree with that.
Do you think blacks are the only ones living in poor areas?
This was not what I asked, so if you don't have an answer to my question it's ok to say so. I asked for data to be extracted about ANY of the immigrant groups you mentioned, not 'blacks.' You decided that I meant 'blacks.' I didn't have any group in mind other than one of the groups you previously mentioned.
1 in 4 (14.3 million) people in the UK were living in poverty in 1998/9 compared with under 1 in 10 in 1979.Would you tell me what was the poverty line in 1979 and in today's dollars, what is the same poverty line?
The natives of the UK are the most poverty stricken of all, and by your reasoning their proportion of crime should be the same as all other poor groups, but it isn’t, as West-Indians commit crimes/hate incidents far in excess of all others groups regardless of their socio-economic conditions.Would you please provide evidence of this claim, as well as the source of all of your statistics? You do seem to have quite a few of them on hand, but as we have seen from the WBTS they can be manipulated any way you like.
ALSO would you please find the statistics for white collar crime in the UK which you haven't mentioned at all? I'd like to know if you have the statistics for WHO commits the white-collar crimes and also whether you find this type of crime more acceptable if it is committed by UK naturals.
I am interested in knowing how much white collar crime vs. violent crimes/petty crimes cost the UK.
Thanks Nemesis.
Lisa
Lisa you asked:
“What percent of Group X living in poverty/middle income/wealthy are responsible for the commission of those crimes?”
Not sure where “commission” comes into it, but the income is not put on crime surveys, income/employment etc. are on social surveys/economic surveys not crime surveys. The figures are from the Home office, Police, and British Crime surveys, and can be obtained from each organisation. The race/crime relation is published later this year (as I have said and will post when I have a copy), and shows how race and crime are linked, or at least what race is doing what etc. That is also from the Home Office, based on police/court/prison etc. figures.
“Would you tell me what was the poverty line in 1979 and in today's dollars, what is the same poverty line?”
It’s not done in exact sums as it’s related to the size of the family, and circumstances, etc. and the country’s economy. Those who classify it usually class anyone who gets less than 50% average mean income after housing costs as living in poverty.
“. . . West-Indians commit crimes/hate incidents far in excess of all others groups. . . ‘Would you please provide evidence of this claim, as well as the source of all of your statistics?’”
Well if you have over 14 million in poverty, and another 46 million (UK population), but only just over 800,000 (population, not poverty) blacks and coloureds (according to OSN [Office of National Statistics]) it doesn’t take much to see where the biggest poverty group is. As for crime I have said several times, when the crime/race figures come out, I will happily post them, until then you will have to wait. I gave the crime figures for London without race a few posts back, the rest of the country’s don’t come out until they are collated with race.
“ALSO would you please find the statistics for white collar crime in the UK which you haven't mentioned at all? I'd like to know if you have the statistics for WHO commits the white-collar crimes and also whether you find this type of crime more acceptable if it is committed by UK naturals”
Can I ask you what is your definition of ‘white collar crime’? Just fraud? Or what? And it would have to fit into one of the already existing categories. And no I don’t find it acceptable, but I would rather have a neighbour who fiddled his taxes than a neighbour who fiddled his benefits, house, welfare, etc. and then robs, sells crack, rapes, and kills people.
Eman's question was whether his expectation that foriegners who come to reside in his country learn the language and make an effort to adapt the local habits could be considered racist. I think the general consensus is that it does not make him a racist. I would agree.
Now, why are we going off on a big discussion about racist attitudes in general and trying to defend our own race? While Eman did bring up the question of race I do not think this topic is about general race related issues. The fact that we all agree that the very idea of a local wanting the foriegners to learn the local language and respect the local culture is not racist would seem to indicate that the social problems faced in the UK related to this issue are not purely racial in nature. The fact that race is involved in the topic is circumstancial. It has become necessary for honest and open people who wish to acknowledge the problems they face when dealing with foriegners (or minorities) in their own country to defend themselves against unfair accusations of racial bias. I think that is the crux of the matter. Because Eman or Nemesis have direct comments relating to the actions of some foriegners in their local communities and how this has been affecting them personaly they run the risk of being branded a racist. I think that is clearly unfair and that we should be listening to the natives who are facing their own difficulties in the socio-economic mix in their own country.
Certainly it can't be more fair to listen to the complaints of a foriegner who feels he has been taken advantage of then to turn a deaf ear to the local native who also feels cheated. Only a fair and open dialog, without pre-judgement, can eventually lead to a solution that is equally fair to both parties. But what is happening here is happening in the whole of our societies in general. Just the mere mention of "race" clouds the issues with rhetoric and debate not directly related to the finding of a solution. Most people seem more than content to debate and argue about race but are hard pressed to find anything to say that might actually solve the original problem at hand. Why is that? Why do we let ourselves get distracted by emotional and fruitless argumentation that does not have direct bearing on the problems. There may be an appropriate forum for arguing racial inequality and there is a huge swell of voices that must be heard on that issue alone. However, this matter of foreigners resisting the host countries language and culture is not a racial issue. It is a social issue and is more related to socio-economics than to race.
The unfortunate reality is that many foriegners who find themselves in a host country are un-educated and economically destitute. They easily fall victim to following those who prefer to banter with their "enemies" with flowery rhetoric about how racially depressed they are and who recruit these dupes into their cause. But should that distract us from looking for a solution that serves the needs of both the unfortunate and ignorant and the local bloke who is only trying to take care of his own just like the foreigner who has moved in to his community. Neither Eman or Nemesis, or others who share their opinion on this matter, are suggesting that all foriegners should be judged according to their race or social stature. The are not willing to deny them opportunity. But there must be some rules that will help prevent those who would abuse the generosity of host countries from wrecking havoc in the democratic marketplace. What laws need to be enacted that will protect the honest ones who need help and deter the thieves and con-artists who are only interested in themselves and couldn't care less about whether the community as a whole goes to hell in a handbasket.
Statistics are rarely indicative of individual values. I really hate to be classified as a bigoted white man simply because my skin color is the same as a few bastards who enslaved other human beings for their own profit. I really hate to be called racist when I support the notion that our company live up to certain standards of behavior that does not include wearing torn clothing, tattoos, nose rings, psychodelic hair, using foul language, purposely blasting hip-hop gangsta rap to ensure that everyone else within a two block radius can experience the chosen art form whether they like it or not, and speaking without diction. These requirements of employment will seriously limit my pool of acceptable applicants. But I will not be called a racist if I end up with an unbalanced representation of all the minority cultures in my neighborhood. It has nothing to do with race. But some minority groups are quick to use that accusation in an effort to draw attention to what they feel is unfair discrimination against all nose-ring wearing, tatooed, hip-hop fans. They fail to reason objectively and can only lash out with spurious accusations because that is all they know. Apparently, no one has taught them that getting their arms all tattood up and peircing your entire face will seriously affect their opportunity for advancement and a good paying job (unless they happen to get drafted by the NBA). It seems that many of these folks are content to remain ignorant and uneducated and live off the welfare of others and drug profits and hang out on the street dancing to hip-hop and showing off their tatoos. And then they cry foul when I refuse to employ them or point out to my legislators that my tax dollars are paying for their street parties and for the repairs to the street signs and lamps that get broken in the drunken festivities they prefer to seeking out an education and a good job. Now I'm the enemy ("the man") because I want to bring them up to a higher standard so that maybe their children will be employable.
What is particulary irritating is that should someone from the socially deprived community really try to better themselves and refuse to be assimilated into the street gang culture these ones will be branded as "nigger" and "whitey" and be percieved as switching over to the enemy camp. Then when this achiever moves up the ladder and starts doing well they end up with enemies on both sides. The gangsta's hate them for getting out of the gutter and the dominant social group (which happen to be white in my community) feel threatened by the lower class upstart and won't accept that he or she is not a knife-weilding gutter rat. Pathetic. Everyone should be fairly treated on merit and not judged as the enemy because they are of a different race. And that's the solution to this problem of foreigners in host countries. They should be judged and held accountable but according to rules of merit. If they are contributing to the good of the society they should be given equal priviledge and respect. If they are parasitic and are only looking for handouts they must accept whatever menial tasks are assigned to them by society until they start giving back. When everyone is giving the society tends to thrive. When more people are taking than giving it suffers. But this is idealistic and will likley never happen in the real world. There are too many ingrained problems with society. All that we should expect is that for those that want it there will be an opportunity. We have made some inroads into that type of society but still have a long way to go.
Sean
Wow, Sean. You are really eloquent today. I couldn't agree more, with your comments.
It seems to me, that the 'minority' races, get preferential treatment, when it comes to college and certain jobs, that don't 'discriminate'. In the push to not discriminate, they actually ARE discriminating. For instance, our youngest son tried for a long time to get hired by several police departments. He had very high scores, in all testing areas, but he is white and red haired. If he had been Hispanic or Black, OR a woman, he would have gotten all the jobs he applied for. Something is wrong with this system. Why CAN'T they hire the MOST qualified?
It's okay with us, because we didn't want him in police work anyway, but it was HIS dream. Now he is going for being a paralegal. I hope he doesn't run into the same problems there.
Marilyn (aka Mulan)
"No one can take advantage of you, without your permission." Ann Landers
Englishman,
I am sure you know better...
You are not a racist but just an human being with natural tendencies.
Again neralgic topic, it is.
People resist change, (and avoid any resistance resistance) even regarding culinary traditions. Blame the evolution itself. As for avoiding resistance I have never seen a river flowing up hill. For a change what do you drink scotch or wine?
A contradiction is that in most countries men do really like to change their wife every so often. They dont resist that change when...
For change to occur an open mind is required, but it does not develop without proper education.
BTW colonizers did not adopt native culture, on the contrary...
Have you tried learning chinese?
Hi Nem... been away a few days.
I've read your response, and feel that we may have to agree to differ. I don't feel you've proved your claims, and feel you've ignored some of the points I made. You probably feel the same way about me, thus me suggesting we leave it.
I would love to see you prove that race, rather than economic status, is the key factor in who commits crime though (a contention I really have problems swallowing), and will trust you will present the statistics you spoke of in due course.
All the best
I've really benefitted from reading all the different points of view expressed here.
It would appear to be a fairly accepted wish of an indigenous population that visitors and immigrants make an effort to fit in with local customs and, most importantly, make an effort to master the language. Oddly, I was first made aware of this in Portugal where there are many ex-pat British people who just bunch up together to re-create England abroad. They are no credit to their homeland.
Englishman.
