Does This Make Me A Racist?

by Englishman 77 Replies latest jw friends

  • Abaddon
    Many communities like the Muslim Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Africans, and West Indians, don’t pay anywhere enough tax to pay for even their own people who claim benefits.

    This is the root of the problem. I thought people were people. I didn't realise some people belonged to other people and that I could ignore them.

    I believe it is this attitude in the absorbing culture which can increase the time it takes for integration, as if the absorbing culture doesn't actually regard all people as equal, then the integrating culture will be alienated. Of course, in such a situation, even though it's the absorbing cultures 'fault', it is the integrating culture that gets the blame.

    Also, if the absorbing culture can choose what aspects of other cultures it can adopt (wine with meals, spaghetti, pizza, curry, whatever), what the hell is wrong with the integrating culture choosing what aspects of the absorbing culture it adopts? Do you expect 60 year-old illiterate Bengali women to learn English, read the sun, watch Eastenders and eat fish and chips? What about freedom of choice? Does that apply only if you're in the absorbing culture?

    Also, third, fourth etc. generations become increasingly integrated... bigotry diminishes, they are more accepted, and as they are more accepted they can integrate more without losing their identity. And they are entitled to their cultural identity; if the Irish can prat about on St. Patrick's day, and put bad temper down to their ancestry, and Welshmen who have never lived in Wales can get all flushed when Wales win a rugby, if English people who don't give a toss about the monarchy can get swept up by the death of 'England's Rose' (puke), then why is it wrong for Hindus to celebrate Devali, for Muslim girls to wear trousers instead of skirts, or to go to Bollywood movies? What's wrong with being a Rasta?

    I'm not having a go at YOU personally Nemisis by using your quote; I would say I'd love to see PROOF of this statement, and I'd love to see your cost/benefit analysis for the Notting Hill Carnival, balancing the cost of running the carnival against increased income to local businesses. I'd also like to see your comments on the social justice of attracting cheap workers from ex-colonies to settle in the UK, and then acting like them and their children are in the same group as political refugees when the work climate changes; in Germany they don't even give the Turkish migrant workers citezenship, which is harsher, but at least more honest (you're not one of us, can't be one of us, we just need you for now).

    Frequently people make statements about immigrants not contributing. In the short-term, yes, maybe this is true. And? Just let people die? Or let some other country deal with the problem? Hell, if you like that idea, Australia is calling (ducks)! But, the fact that immigrants are frequently econmically dynamic is ignored (Asians in Oz and UK being a classic example; first generation sweet shop, second chemist, third doctor). What stops this integration and becoming net contributors as a community? The absorbing community!!

    Do people seriously think an immigrant will say "No, I'll sit here with my thumb up my arse" if he's treated like an equal, has equal opportunities, and doesn't have to read malinformed opinions in the press about how people like him are a menece to Society?

  • teenyuck

    This was posted in the Columbus Dispatch this morning. It is an article that addresses this issue.

    BTW, Hyghlandyr, if you come through on your way to Dublin, e-mail me and we can meet up. I would love to meet you and your love. My husband is a beer drinkin' Irishman. PS, I also lived in Cincinnati, back in 1995-1996...Union, KY to be exact. Just south of the border...

    French elections underscore a European shift to the right
    Wednesday, April 24, 2002
    William J. Kole
    Associated Press

    VIENNA, Austria -- Austria for the Austrians. France for the French. Holland and Denmark without Muslims or mosques.

    The surprise resurgence of extreme nationalist Jean-Marie Le Pen in France's first round of presidential elections is just the latest example of the far right gaining ground in Europe.

    From Austria, home to far-right politician Joerg Haider and the anti-immigration Freedom Party, to the Netherlands -- where rightist Pim Fortuyn has a foothold among the usually tolerant Dutch -- extremist politicians are winning votes by tapping working-class fears that foreigners are stealing jobs and a way of life.

    "I feel like I'm being taken hostage,'' said Wolfgang Seidler, 53, a Vienna businessman and political moderate who's bewildered at the shift. "We're in a new millennium, and yet we're going back to the 19th century.''

    Some say Europeans are receptive to harsh anti-foreigner rhetoric because rapid globalization has made them feel like they've lost control of their lives.

    Others contend the traditionally centrist political establishment has brought the far right into play by losing touch with citizens' daily struggles.

    That, they say, has created fertile ground for ultraconservatives like Le Pen and his potent "France for the French'' nationalism or Mogens Glistrup, founder of Denmark's extremist Progress Party, who wants to expel all Muslims.

    "There's a deep, widespread and genuine concern over issues of personal and national identity,'' said Simon Serfaty of the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.

    "There are multiple forces that challenge these nations and their citizens: too many immigrants, the European Union, the intrusion of American culture,'' he said yesterday. "People see it as a kind of invisible invasion. They have no way out, and the hard right is rooted in that.''

    In the congested Netherlands, where roughly 2 million of the 16 million inhabitants are not native Dutch, it's become almost taboo to discuss sensitive issues such as immigration and a spike in street crime many quietly blame on young toughs from Morocco and Suriname.

    Those issues are the party platform for Fortuyn and the Leefbaar Nederland (Livable Netherlands) party, which has 19 percent support heading into May elections. Though many Dutch bristle when Fortuyn calls Islam a "backward culture,'' they also have harsh words for a government perceived as paralyzed by political correctness.

    "If someone wants to discuss these matters, they're called racist,'' said Joost Schutten, a politically moderate engineer. "Because the government is not taking action, people get angry. By ignoring the issues, the government is moving people to the right.''

    It's not a new trend. Le Pen's National Front has been a political fixture in France for three decades, and Haider's Freedom Party was around long before it became part of Austria's coalition government in 2000.

    Leaders of the World Jewish Congress called an emergency meeting this week in Brussels, Belgium, to assess a troubling trend of anti-Semitic attacks across Europe.

    Synagogues, Jewish schools and cemeteries have been targeted in recent weeks. Although many of the suspects are Arab youths of North African origin apparently protesting Israel's offensive in Palestinian areas, rightist extremists are blamed for others.

    Some say it's no coincidence that most of the incidents have happened in France, where Le Pen once called Nazi gas chambers a detail of history, and in Belgium, home to the far-right and staunchly anti-immigrant Vlaams Blok (Flemish Bloc) party.

    In Italy, Silvio Berlusconi presides over a conservative coalition that includes the fiercely rightist Northern League, which wants jobless immigrants deported. In Germany, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is working to outlaw the National Democratic Party, which is accused of stirring up skinhead violence and neo-Nazi ideology.

    As the European Union expands to take in the formerly communist countries of eastern Europe, where extremism flourishes, the right's more sinister side could grow.

    Hungary, a front-runner for EU membership, has a small but boisterous far-right party. So does Romania, where ultranationalist leader Corneliu Vadim Tudor speaks out harshly against Jews and Gypsies.

    Even so, Europeans "shouldn't panic too quickly,'' Serfaty said.

    "We're not about to relive the 1930s in Europe,'' he said. "Europe has never been more democratic, never more prosperous, never more secure than it is today.''

  • jwsons

    Sounds like "If you decide to get baptism, you should give up all your lifestyle, speak 'pure language', dress moderately (skirt should cover your knees even in sitting down HeHeHe!!!!), only make friends with people who shares the 'spiritual values (ANOTHER HeHeHe!!!)
    And ...still can not get rid the WacoTower and Dark Society syndrome even after many years out from the Borg. Yeh?
    BTW, according to David Reed (former elder in Texas), his wife tried to encourage old sisters back to the meetings at Kingdom Hall by herself wearing trousers instead of skirts (old sisters stayed home because they can not wear skirt in winter time _ as David tell us as such). Then, together with other reasons, David Reed and his wife were kicked out because of this behaviour, which "violate" the culture of Kingdom Hall!

  • jwsons
  • Englishman

    Do you expect 60 year-old illiterate Bengali women to learn English, read the sun, watch Eastenders and eat fish and chips? What about freedom of choice? Does that apply only if you're in the absorbing culture?


    Do you expect 60 year-old illiterate Bengali women to learn English?

    Yes. YES.



  • jwsons

    Englishman went to China for a research course in 3 yrs.
    He always avoid to go to the Club at the corner of Tiamen
    Square, where all English-speaking reporters used to be there
    and avoids to speak English even though he surrounded by
    English and English-speaking friends !!!!

    After those 3 years, Englishman decides to stay there
    because he can see the hospitality of Chinese people. He
    applied for a citizenship but he couldn't understand well
    Chinese writting. Luckily, the offical is a Hongkong Chinese,
    can speak his English and kindly help him to use the interpreter
    service availlable to fill the form (all E.T. characters!).
    Englishman thought this Chinese man should shout "YES, YES you
    should know 'our easy language' before you can be our citizen" (in reality, it's only easy
    for people with the similar culture like Japanese or
    Korean). Even if the INS official did shout to him,
    he can only smile and answer in Chinese:
    "Me no Mendaring spoking" eventhough there are
    100 free Chinese-courses availlable(HeHeHe???).
    Today, after 10 yrs in China, Englishman still can not write Chinese
    but he did enjoy love and kindness from the true good neighbours.
    His wife is the black-hair Chinese girl with red-Hawaiian-dress who's
    dancing on the left picture. His wife doesn't believe any barriers
    can stop they love each other as human being. She studied English
    for she knows he has difficulties with WacoTowerism. They are now
    living in happiness with a little boy can speak two languages.
    However, Englishman' sister-in-law (the blue-Hawaiian-dress dancer
    on the right) can not understand why Englishman could ever believe
    in a couple of decades about a Paradise, where Eve tried to repeat
    "Flu-wer" after Adam when she first saw the tulips field in Holland !
    Englishman now feels fully happy and he even can sing-a-long with Mr.
    Bing Lee(an owner of a couple of electrical shops in China) "I like
    Chinese ...foods
    " that 2UE radio plays every morning, while Englishman
    enjoying Yum-Cha,looking his wife and his sister-in-law dance.

  • Abaddon

    Hey, Englishman, when I was a young Dub, there was this huge council estate not far from where I lived. It was FULL of such ladies.

    I can honestly say that it is unrealistic to expect your 60-year-old Bengali, Bangladeshi, Gujerati or indeed Martian woman to just up and learn English given the level of goverment support.

    Thus the point about illiterate; what's she gonna do, read a book? Probably low-income/no-income, as her hubby is likely to be unskilled (obviously she wouldn't work outside of any family business), so seeking private assitance is unrealistic... add cultural prohibitions regarding contact with men that may or may not exist - they answered the door like they were in fear of their lives, because there was a strange man there... obviously not all immigrants are 60 year-old ladies from the Indian sub-continent, but many have similar difficulties.

    It's a bit much to glibly expect a person of such circumstances and means to be a self-starter in languages, or to tap dance along to the local Adult Education Centre of an evening.

    Here in Holland they actually teach immigrants Dutch. At first I thought this was an imposition; surely that is the person's responsibility/decision. But, this country is SO integrated compared to either the 'States or England that, given fairly similar cultures, the removal of a linguistic bar must be at least one of the deciding factors.

    Personally speaking, I don't feel alienated by people not speaking English in England; I think they are the ones that feel alienated. However, if it aids integration, be it due to helping the immigrants get over the language barrier, or be it due to helping the English not to seeth over the sheer affrontery of a resident foreigner not speaking the Queen's English, it must be a good thing.

  • Englishman


    You live in Holland, yes?

    I bet you can get by in Dutch, even though lots of Dutch people speak English. My point is simply how can you become integrated into a country if you wont speak the language?


  • LDH

    One of the biggest problems JWs (and therefore many XJWs) have--is the ability to understand the 'flip side' of the argument.

    Eman, While I certainly agree that EVERYONE should try to learn the language of the country they live in consider this.

    1. You, very intelligent guy, mid 50s well traveled, net surfer dude, entreprenurial spirit who may open a business in another country. Good basis for education in one of the finest school systems available. Maybe even a University graduate.


    2. Sundeep, the 55 y.o. Bangladeshi woman who is probably a functional illiterate in her OWN country. There is no education opportunity for ANY woman in her country, and she's never had even a rudimentary education.

    The big difference? You have learned how to learn She has learned how to survive.

    It's not quite fair to believe that everyone's brain and thinking ability start out on the same level--when the truth is--for the last 55 years all Sundeep has been doing is making curry and washing clothes in the same river she just pissed in.

    Why can't you see that? Her brain is NOT in the same place of learning that yours is.

    That doesn't make you racist, it means you don't understand that not everyone was raised like you.


  • Englishman


    You make a valid point, although uni grad I ain't!

    However, Her Ladyship has just thrown a spanner in the works, she says that if we do move to Madeira then we should also be prepared to transfer our national allegiance to that country. She also says that if we are not prepared to do that then we should stay put.

    I shall have to think on this one.


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