How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care 327 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • latinthunder
    latinthunder
    OH, I BET!! Why am I reminded of the 'intense debates' said to have occurred in the Middle Ages amongst priests over the burning issue of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    If you think the debate is frivolous, then why do you engage in it, and with such passion?

    As I pointed out in my response to Caliber, the HALLMARK of a great leader is the ability to communicate in terms that make their goals easy for others to understand and follow, not to speak in riddles.

    Spiritual things and places are best described in parables, allegories, metaphors, symbology and yes, sometimes even riddles. There is no better way, as you seem to be implying.

    BTW, talking animals were a commonly-used literary device in the ancient World to indicate that whatever follows is a FANTASY, a fable (eg Aesop's Fables, from Greece), much like the modern fairy-tale opens with those magical words, "Once upon a time".

    Fable is a synonym of allegory. There are specific reasons WHY the serpent is a serpent and not another animal. You seem to gloss over this major factor.

    But I'll play along with your allegory defense, but you now have the burden to explain what the allegory represents (and yes, that's basically an invitation to engage in MORE wild speculation, AKA eisegesis). What you're suggesting is a commonly-used defense tactic of Bible defenders, with more and more of the Bible claimed as allegorical, as science proves more and more of the Bible as ludicrious, if read as literal.

    The burden is on me to prove whether or not it's a fable (or ALLEGORY) which is easily done by pointing out the talking animals and other logical impossibilities. Once that fact is established I am not required to interpret all peices of imagery for the work to be considered a fable. Your logic is off, way off.

    You DO realize that the term "free will" doesn't appear ANYWHERE in the Bible, OT or NT, so it's anachronistic to insert it into the story of A&E, right? The term is a LATE development of philosophers, although the underpinnings do extend back to early Greek philsophers.

    The reason why I use the term is because God gave Adam and his wife a choice. The choice they made determined their fate which means a heavy theme of the document is free will and cause and effect. Genesis means "origins" so it's not surprising to see a story in it about the origin of free will.

    But anyway, you seem to mistakenly believe the phrase "created in the image of God" has something to do with the Divine Authority issue presented in the Garden of Eden account, and it doesn't. The central issue is not whether A&E had the CAPABILITY to eat of the fruit (using their own free will), but whether they had God's PERMISSION to do so (and they clearly DIDN'T: God had expressly forbid them from doing so, and hence why eating the fruit was defined as a 'sin', a violation of the Divine Will).

    God created Adam and his wife with the ability to break commandments which further delves into the subject of their free will. The story shows us that ultimately, humanity is free to do whatever it wants, but not without the logical consequences of cause and effect. It also shows that God uses his own free will to save us from ourselves. He is our salvation.

    Noah "walked with God" too: does Jehovah consort with the wicked evil-doers? Hebrews 11 specifically mentions the righteousness of faithful Noah who was hand-picked by God for the job. Odd that I don't remember reading the account of Latin Thunder's famous deeds of faith arguing with atheists on JWN mentioned anywhere in the Bible? I'd be careful who I go around declaring as "wicked", if I were you, LOL!

    The Torah calls him wicked, not me. It calls ALL humans in the story of Genesis 6 wicked which would include Noah because he had a human heart. The Torah ALSO says that Noah was righteous among his people (simultaneously wicked AND righteous). A more modern example of the concept being addressed would be that of Thomas Jefferson. His world was wicked and he was a product of that world. He was a racist slave owner and by modern standards that's not considered righteous. But AMONG HIS GENERATION, he was a righteous man who walked with God. Genesis 6 shows that humanity's morality is subjective, while God's is objective.

    So, it seems God finally decided to throw in the towel after figuring out there's nothing more He could do about the "evil in the hearts of men" defect, despite having just drowned the ENTIRE population of the World (and animals/plants). God seemingly says, "Oh, well, it's just the way it is...." and accepts the defect as it is, where humans just seem to have an intrinsic inclination for evil and there's not a dol-gurn thing omnipotent God can do to fix it!

    God didn't throw in the towel, he chose to save Noah and rebuild the human race.

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    "I used the physics book example because scripture works in the same way. When you are done learning from a physics textbook and are left with nothing of use, it was not a physics textbook. That's not in the "eye of the beholder" it's the scientific method. Billions of people all around the world stand by the usefulness of their ancient texts for the training of righteousness. Scripture is distinguished from non scripture by it's usefullness especially across generations."

    Really!!!! Are you trying to ad the scientific method into mythology discussion. Are you trying to apply legend to the physical world? This is the basic model for the Scientific Method. Try to apply #3 and #4 to the book and your deity. Let me know how it goes. 1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena. 2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation. 3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations. 4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments. Ismael

  • tec
    tec

    Don't paraphrase my words, adamah. You don't seem able to do it right.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    "MadGiant,

    TEC doesn't feel that 2 Tim 3:16 applies to her, since she marched into his office and demanded Jesus have a personal relationship with her, and he said she's exempted from following the Bible now since she goes straight to the source to get the pure unadulterated Word of Jesus.

    Adam"

    copy that, thanks.

    Take care,

    Ismael

  • cofty
    cofty
    God didn't throw in the towel, he chose to save Noah and rebuild the human race.

    There was no flood. It didn't happen. This is a fact.

    Have all the supernatural beliefs you want but at least ground them in reality.

  • latinthunder
    latinthunder
    1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

    I observe the existence of Scripture.

    Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

    I hypothesize that Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness .

    Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

    Because Scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness ignoring it's edicts results in a less than acceptable quality of life.

    Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

    Humanity has performed an experiment called Religion. In this experiment it was proven that when holy texts are adhered to a higher quality of life is established. Conversely, when the holy texts are ignored quality of life suffers.

    I conclude that Scripture, which gives rise to religion, is good for the wellbeing of mankind when properly followed and detrimental when ignored.

    There was no flood. It didn't happen. This is a fact.

    I agree, I was speaking within the context of the story, not literal history. Keep your panties on.

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    Wow!! I fell like I am trolling.

    "Fable is a synonym of allegory. There are specific reasons WHY the serpent is a serpent and not another animal. You seem to gloss over this major factor." Would you please post the sources you have that lead you to this conclusion? Are those sources you opinion? Do you have any other sources to support your claims? Ismael

  • latinthunder
    latinthunder
    Would you please post the sources you have that lead you to this conclusion? Are those sources you opinion? Do you have any other sources to support your claims?

    Lots of scholars have concluded the story to be a fable, if not most. What other plausible explanation is there? What do you think was going through the minds of the original writers of Genesis? Do you think it's more reasonable to think that they believed in talking snakes and magic fruit? I think Occam's razor applies here, calling it a fable (an ALLEGORY) is the simplest conclusion especially considering it was common practice in that day in age.

    The problem is that so many people over the ages propagated the false idea that it was literal history. If you keep telling a lie over and over eventually people will believe it.

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    "Lots of scholars have concluded the story to be a fable, if not most. What other plausible explanation is there? What do you think was going through the minds of the original writers of Genesis?"

    Sooooo, no Genesis no original sin, no original sin no need for a an omnipotent spirit being from another dimension to give birth to himself so he could later torture himself to death as a sacrifice to himself to appease himself for something he started in the first place... Ismael

  • tec
    tec

    copy that, thanks.

    Copy a lie?

    Your choice. I answered your questions, and even gave you scriptures to back it up, since you asked. So you can check for yourself. What you do with any of that though, is up to you.

    Peace,

    tammy

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