Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin 155 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  DogGone

  jgnat,

  That is the million dollar question. Personally, I think it is a question of management not cure. But, what really do I know? I am worried that killing all abusers would send the wrong message to some, that they should just kill the victim since the punishment is the same and the witness is gone. But, that is an opinion that carries no merit, just one mans' thought.

  Lost,

  You are 100% crystal clear on your stance that adult pedophiles who commit "heinous crimes" against children should be killed. I don't think anyone reading this could doubt that this is what you firmly believe. I don't agree, nor do I think this has much to do with the question of reporting. If you want the death penalty, talk to your political representative in whatever country you call home.

  I asked if you were angry because of the tone of your posts. Your questions challenged whether we are cowards, jehovists, ignoring, covering up, etc. It might just be your writing style and I apologize for asking if you were angry. I won't assume it angered you to ask if you were angry, of course. That wouldn't make any sense.

  Lost, we are talking past one another. You are talking about a world which is black and white and I'm talking about the grey. You bring up children getting raped, tortured and buggered. It is easy to say kill them all! However, not all cases are so black and white. Not all abuse takes that form. You ask if we are going to ask about each scenario and pick apart the ones that seem less than the other? YES I AM!! If you are going to say kill them all I am going to ask:

  - does that include adolescents? (you have answered no)

  - does that include women? (you have answered yes)

  - does that include inappropriate touching?

  - does that include creepy text messages, phone calls, or emails?

  - does that include peeping toms?

  - does that include mentally disadvantaged people?

  - does that include non sexual abuse?

  - does that include when the victim is sleeping?

  - does that include when the abuser confesses?

  - does that include those who induce kids to undress on a webcam?

  - does that include people who sneak cameras into locker rooms?

  - does that include people under the age of 25 that engage in sexual activity with people over the age of 16?

  - does that include people over the age of 18 who engage in sexual activity with people under the age of 18?

  - does that include people viewing child pornography?

  - does that include people viewing so called "jailbait"?

  - does that include when the victim, now an adult, does not want the abuser to be killed?

  You started with an unqualified statement and now you have qualified it with "adult" and "heinous". Simply put, what is "adult" and what is "heinous"? Is your stand really so simple?

  And even if you answered all those questions, that is one person's view. If you answered yes down the line I'd applaud your consistency. But, it is neither the law nor germane to the question of what Catholics or JW's have or will do on the matter of reporting. My point is simple, if you want them to report, make it the law. If you want to kill all the pedophiles, well, I'm going to respectfully disagree. I'm also going to insist that your opinion is an unreflective and easy emotional solution to a deeply complex and challenging problem.
• 

  *lost*

  Why do you continuosly 'twist' what I say, and try and turn it into something it is not ?

  I have repeatedly made my opinion clear, and the definition, to make sure that there is clarity on the mattter.

  I think you will find if there was a survey, the vast majority of society would agree with the stance I have taken.

  My tone of writing ? how do come to that conclusion ?

  You see therein lies the problem. How you choose to view something.

  I didn't bring up your personal details regarding your family and the abuse your children suffered and the details, you did.

  I didn't say 'you jehovist' or 'you catholics' . My statement, of my opinion, included those two organisations as an example,

  because their crimes and cover-ups are well documented and evidenced.

  One could take the view that possibly you feel guilty, your child was abused, under your care, you decided to forgive the abuser. Possibly you have some inner feelings of conflict. possibly your asking yourself if you did the right thing, or are confused within about the whole situation.

  Or possibly you are looking for sympathy.

  Not saying that those points have merit, just giving an example of how things can be mis-construed.

  You see how it goes, people think differently and have different opinions, opinions aren't really worth a whole lot at the end of the day.

  I fail to see how which country one lives in is relevant to crime and punishment.

  Justice should prevail. The 'weak' in society should be protected, that should be evey persons moral duty.

  I didn't say 'kill them all'.
• 

  jhine

  Lost , sorry about the amateur psychology , didn't mean to offend .

  Not sure where to start on the rest , not advocating the death penalty does NOT equal not advocating reporting . I believe that abuse should be reported so that the proper authorities can handle it , so that the victim knows that they are believed , taken seriously and get the help that they need . Not reporting in order to cover up and deny a problem is not right . I take the rights and feelings of the victim as top priority .

  You say " Forgive , by standards are we using the yardstick here on forgiveness ? being a so called Christian ?

  Well Christians , real Christians are called upon to forgive , it's in the Bible . As far as I know it does not say that someone commiting a crime should not receive the suitable lawful punishment , that is a different matter and nowhere are we told to cover up crimes . I know that not everywhere has laws saying that abuse has to be reported , just as it is not a crime in itself to not not report most crimes , but Jesus always put the victims , the downtrodden , the forgotten first and Christians should do the same .

  AS I said in an earlier post , of course common sense must be used and children and vunerable adults must always be protected . I have checked and you will be pleased to hear that my Church C of E has strict reporting rules and child protection officers (who are told to report) in every dioscese . So lots of churches are learning the lesson .
• 

  DogGone

  LOST: “Never mind whether or not they will, or might reoffend, they should never be allowed that chance. they should recive the death peanlty, end of problem. much cheaper option too.”

  LOST: “The abuser was female, big difference between a male abuser and a female abuser, maybe you should have been clear on that in you initial post.”

  LOST: “still in, I made it perfectly clear, paedophiles, who are responsible for heinous crimes against children, should be put to death.”

  LOST: “Why do you continuosly 'twist' what I say…….I didn’t say kill them all”

  You did unreservedly say they should be put to death. I’m not twisting your words, I’m asking for clarification to see if there is more nuance in your opinion of what society should do or if it is merely a moral high ground. I have my answer and withdraw my questions.

  LOST: “The lie, the deception, the trickery. that you and your wife support and worship…..I for sure wouldn't want to be involved in worshiping satan the devil… Could be, jw's are brainwashed demon possessed slaves ? scary thought that actually, but it fits perfectly.”

  LOST: “Perhaps you choose to ignore the effects it has on peoples lives, the actual victim.”

  LOST: “If more people had courage, instead of cowardice, and didn't cover things up, there would be less suffering.”

  LOST: “Making broad sweeping generalisations, doesn't cut it, neither does omitting information under a pretence to draw memebers into a deliberate inflamed conversation.”

  LOST: “do you take the jehovist stance of covering up…?”

  LOST: “My tone of writing ? how do come to that conclusion ?”

  I can’t imagine how I would have had cause to wonder about your tone

  LOST: “I fail to see how which country one lives in is relevant to crime and punishment.”

  OK, wow!

  Lost, you confuse questions with statements. You are confusing Stillin and myself. You are the one questioning motives. No one is questioning yours. Not even by using disingenuous language such as “one could say”. You seem to confuse several thoughts when using points about the massive failings of religion to argue for capital punishment. Or at least, I'm having trouble following the point.

  I don't think you are interested in a good faith conversation with me about the topics that are close to my heart. Respectfully, I'm going to bow out from further conversation with you on this topic. All the best.
• 

  stillin

  DogGone: thanks for addressing all of that. I simply do not have the time for such people, although he may be a perfectly delightful conversationalist.

  I also appreciate your studied approach to a touchy subject.
• 

  DogGone

  Stillin,

  Thank-you for your kind words. But, I let her get under my skin and failed in following my great mentor, Jimmy Stewart:

  "Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

  ~ Harvey
• 

  stillin

  Lol. Good one! I can almost hear him saying it.
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  *lost*

  Doggone, I have no desire to get into a personal dispute with you on difference of opinions on what should be done with child abusers.

  you appear to take issue with my opinion, on a personal level.

  This is a discussion forum, not everyone agrees on the same things, and people will make comments others will not agree on.

  some will feel more passionate than others on certain topics.

  edited to add:

  I hope you are not taking my comments as a direct personal attack, I apologise if that is what you think. It is not the case.

  Child abuse is is what finally opened my eyes to the WT, and is why I got out.
• 

  jhine

  Lost , do you feel that you could elaborate on your last statement ? I ask this knowing that the answer may be "no " and of course that is fine , I know that you may want to protect your identity or the people involved .

  Jan
• 

  *lost*

  Jhine - I don't know what your asking exactly ?