by ctrwtf 24 Replies latest jw friends
Of all the prepostersously nutty ideas the JWs have, the idea that all nations will somehow simultaneously "ban religion" is pretty near if not at the top.
Absolutely. I always thought this idea was lunacy, even when I believed the in the WT.
So when I started researching 1914, so that I could understand it and explain it properly, I realized that the 607/1914 doctrine was in the exact same vain of crazy, and the entire belief system crumbled.
This thread reminds me of the time when JW`s were quoting the scripture " when they are saying peace and security ,then instant destruction would be instantly upon them " 1 Thes.5:3 The Watchtower long ago identified the United Nations as the counterfeit kingdom of God on earth , standing in a holy place where it ought not , wouldnt you think that destruction would have come in the early part of the 1980`s when the UN declared the "Year of Peace and Security "? Instantly ? that occured over 30 years ago .
So I wouldn`t put too much faith in what the JW`s interpretation of what the bible says here either.
Seriously, their are a number of major religions , with millions of adherants in each of them , radically different from each other , and the" paper tiger" ,the UN is going to turn on ALL religion ? and be successful ?
Then again lets look at the success rate of jehovah`s witness predictions/expectations/prophecys/ over the past 130 years .= ZERO .
smiddy
Their idea comes from Revelation 17:17
"For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished"
ctrwtf - their teaching is that the UN will only destroy false religion, not their own religion. Their religion will be attacked later. Here are some quotes that were provided by Blondie
*** re chap.35p.255 par.13***
They have “one thought” in that they want to preserve their national sovereignty rather than accept God’s Kingdom. This was their purpose in subscribing to the League of Nations and the United Nations organization in the first place—to preserve world peace and thus safeguard their own existence. Such an attitude ensures that the horns will oppose the Lamb,
*** re chap.35 pp.257-258 par.20***
They will feel that it is in their nationalistic interests to turn upon the great harlot. They may come to view the continued existence of organized religion within their boundaries as a threat to their sovereignty.
*** w09 3/15 p.18 par.14***
We understand that some time after false religion has been destroyed, there will be an attack on Jehovah’s servants, who have been proclaiming his judgment messages. (Ezek. 38:14-16)
*** w94 3/1 p.20 par.11***
As foretold at Revelation 17:12-17, the time will come when Jehovah starts his strange act by putting it into the hearts of “the ten horns”—militarized members of the United Nations—“to carry out his thought” of devastating the world empire of false religion. How will this come about? There are numerous ways that “the ten horns” of Revelation chapter 17 may, in the words of verse 16, come to “hate the harlot and . . . completely burn her with fire.” True, nuclear arms have proliferated and are still proliferating in many danger spots on earth. But we must wait and see how Jehovah will put it into the hearts of political rulers to execute his vengeance
*** re chap.35 pp.257-258 par.20***
They will feel that it is in their nationalistic interests to turn upon the great harlot. They may come to view the continued existence of organized religion within their boundaries as a threat to their sovereignty.
*** w09 3/15 p.18 par.14***
We understand that some time after false religion has been destroyed, there will be an attack on Jehovah’s servants, who have been proclaiming his judgment messages. (Ezek. 38:14-16)
*** w94 3/1 p.20 par.11***
As foretold at Revelation 17:12-17, the time will come when Jehovah starts his strange act by putting it into the hearts of “the ten horns”—militarized members of the United Nations—“to carry out his thought” of devastating the world empire of false religion. How will this come about? There are numerous ways that “the ten horns” of Revelation chapter 17 may, in the words of verse 16, come to “hate the harlot and . . . completely burn her with fire.” True, nuclear arms have proliferated and are still proliferating in many danger spots on earth. But we must wait and see how Jehovah will put it into the hearts of political rulers to execute his vengeance
The idea that God will put the thought into the minds of Government is something (mis)interpreted from Revelation. This is not going to happen, because Revelation itself is not from God. This book cannot originate from God as it is written with the sole intention of making concepts unintelligible—something which is against the very purpose of communication—hence something a Loving Heavenly Father will certainly not do. God’s servants too will not hide truths in such unintelligible way, fearing opposers (fear of men is not the sign of God’s servants—Proverb 29:25). It is a universal truth that “FEARLESSNESS is the first requisite of spirituality” (said Mahatma Gandhi). Interestingly, his favorite Scripture lists “fearlessness” as the FIRST among 25 qualities that make one spiritual. (Gita 16:1-3). And it is well known that it is by his “fearlessness” that the British Empire itself was brought to its knees! Hence, such a mysterious book called REVELATION can originate only from an organized apostates, or higher class (Acts 20:29, 30) whose very existence depends on having people look up to them for knowledge and on diluting moral standards! The typical example of this, among other things, is the way David is held in esteem in this book. (Revelation 22:16) David is the product of the Old Testament which views gathering of fire-wood on Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36) is more serious than committing adultery after murdering the woman’s husband, that too when David had so many “concubines and wives.” (2 Samuel 5:13; 12:7-8, Chronicles 3:1-9; 14:3) Another interesting thing against this book is that Revelation 14:7 encourages people to worship God to avoid punishment, which is in contrast to what Jesus asks us to worship or to do good for its own sake. ( Matthew 5:44-48; 6:2-4) History shows it is after great tug of war that book of Revelation was inducted into the Bible.
“Truth seeker 674”:
“If you want to see an area that has banned religion I don't think you'll find one. The closest I can think of is North Korea.”
Actually, North Korea under the current leader, Kim Jong-un, as well as under his now deceased father, Kim Jong-il, in effect is a “religion,” with the leader possessing cult status. The citizens, adherents to this type of cult, consider their nation to be a true utopia – a real present-day “paradise,” or “kingdom,” under their god-like ruler. It can be considered a “political religion.” (If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, . . . .)
This is similar to the social-political-religious structure of the first-century Roman Empire. The Caesars were actually considered “gods,” earthly representatives of celestial “gods” often manifest as planets (Mars, Jupiter, Venus). Such celestial/earthly authoritarian structures have emerged in this Roman mythology, as well as Egyptian mythology, Greek mythology, Roman mythology, and, as I like to call it, Christian mythology.
In many forms of radical charismatic political systems, even in an atheistic society (i.e., communist or fascist dictatorship), the relationship and dynamics between the secretariat and proletariat classes by definition constitute a form of “religion” in that it operates as a “religious” structure, or hierarchy. So, whether or not such radical political system or nation purports to be a “religion,” it definitively is so by reason of its modus operandi. If a political system is also part and parcel of a radical state-run religion, where the church and state are intertwined (i.e., radical non-Christian religions, such as Muslim Islam), the rulership of the government and the “church” together comprise a religious entity.
On the other hand, truly democratic nations, such as those in North America and Europe, even though they are non-radical by nature, ascribe to themselves as being nominal Christian countries (i.e., Catholic or Protestant). Such a nation (USA, Canada, UK, etc.) is certainly not a religion in itself (as church and state have long been completely dissociated, with any form of religious beliefs or affiliation being left to the sole discretion and will of each individual as he or she chooses), but it does have what is considered its “official religion,” as manifest in the traditional label “Christian Country,” reinforced, for example, in the famous statement concluding presidential addresses, “May God continue to bless America.”
My point is this: If a nation is radical – either with a cultish and god-like political leader (i.e., North Korea), or with a close-knit religion which is strongly state-sponsored (i.e., Muslim), then such a nation in effect is a religion. If, however, a nation is non-radical and secular (i.e., Christian), then, while not actually being a religion, it still nevertheless identifies with and embraces an “official religion” – it “has” a religion (at least nominally). Thus, there doesn’t seem to be any country or nation which exists in a completely religious vacuum – either it is overtly religious in the classical sense, or it is in effect a pseudo-religion with a cultish and god-like political ruler (even if it’s atheist), or it at least ascribes to an official, “pet” religion. I don’t recall any country or nation that is completely non-religious (atheist) and that does not have a rulership structure which is radical, authoritarian, or cultish in any sense of the word. So, if there is, and always will be, nations that are “religious” in one sense or another, then how the heck can the United Nations, or any other organization for that matter, even attempt to eradicate any and all religious beliefs, affiliation, or devotion worldwide all in one swoop – let alone succeed.
“Simplified” (dumbed-down) version: If all nations either are or have a religion of some kind or another, then, well, it looks like no UN ain’t going to ever just get rid of religion in the world – and certainly not overnight!
Revelation 16:19 is over looked by the WTBT$. "And the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: ( past tense)and Babylon the Great was remembered in the sight of God,( current tense) to give her the cup of the wine of the anger of his wrath". NWT. Notice he progression of these events, first the cities fall, then Babylon the Great. Think about it. My thought is this, both are destroyed at the same time by God. If the U.N. destroys Babylon the Great before God destroys the cities ( Nations) then why would God even remember Babylon the Great if she has already been destroyed by the U.N.? If you look at the U.N. charter, they are about peace, and If the U.N.is going to destroy religion as the WTBT$ states then riddle me this? Why is the WTBT$ a member of the U.N. as a NGO? That tells me that they do not even believe what they teach!!! affectionately: Brother of the Hawk ( I will surrender my mind no more, forever)
Brother of the Hawk:
Revelation 16:19 is over looked by the WTBT$.
If they were smart, they'd overlook the rest of Revelation too. Or at least recognise it as having no relevance to the present (or future).
"And the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: ( past tense)and Babylon the Great was remembered in the sight of God,( current tense) to give her the cup of the wine of the anger of his wrath". NWT. Notice he progression of these events, first the cities fall, then Babylon the Great. Think about it. My thought is this, both are destroyed at the same time by God. If the U.N. destroys Babylon the Great before God destroys the cities ( Nations) then why would God even remember Babylon the Great if she has already been destroyed by the U.N.? If you look at the U.N. charter, they are about peace, and If the U.N.is going to destroy religion as the WTBT$ states then riddle me this?
You might as well try to work out how McDonalds fits into the plot of Star Wars.
Why is the WTBT$ a member of the U.N. as a NGO?
The Watch Tower Society was never a member of the UN. It was an NGO associated with the UN. NGOs can't be UN members.
That tells me that they do not even believe what they teach!!!
I hope this doesn't surprise you.
Bro. Hawk:
All the verbs in Rev 16:19-21 are Aorist tense (Past/Historical), save for for the hail 'coming down' in verse 21, but the cursing that follows is Aorist.
The entire passage is presented or described as something that 'happened' after, or as the result of, the 'great earthquake' in verse 18, which itself is the result of God 'pouring out' the 7th bowl of his anger in verse 17.
Another point of note in the passage (19-21) is the use of polysyndeton. (The connective used is kai, rendered "and"/"also" in the NWT.) The effect is to produce a temporally sequential list of individual events, one after the other.
Thus:
The great city split into three parts (an allusion to Ezek 5 and the 'great city' of Rev 11:8).
The cities of the nations fell (paralleled in the 1st century by Mt 24:29/Luke 21:25, 26 - the Roman civil war of 68/69 AD)
Babylon the Great handed the cup of God's wrath.
Of interest is that the angel (at 17:1) takes John aside to show him about this. The explanation in Rev. 17, especially 17:16, 17, has political powers 'hating the harlot.' This may link their motive to what happened just before, 'the falling of the cities of the nations.' They see the harlot as a significant factor in the preceeding disaster, and needing eliminated. Yet what happens is put to the providence of God and his wrath towards Babylon.
The passage in 16:19 itself ('the great city being split into 3 parts') gives no particular reason for why this happens (other than there being in earthquake in vs. 18). But the allusion to Ezek 5 indicates it is a judgment from God against this "great city." The object of judgment in Ezek 5 is "Jerusalem." (Ezek 5:5) And the description of "the great city" in Revelation 11:8 is alluding to Jerusalem, or something pictured by Jerusalem.
I commented some more about Rev 16:19 on this thread.
The idea of God turning on religion I commented on in this thread (same thread, 2nd page, near bottom).
Whether a person believes God would actually do these things, or if the Bible actually represents God's view, is a seperate matter.
The WT explanation of Rev 16:19 is especially skewed because they view 19a (the great city) as being the same as 19c (Babylon the Great). This turns the rhetorical effect of "and"/"also" into nonsense.
I might also add:
The passage in Rev 17:16, 17 does NOT have God 'putting hatred for the harlot' into the minds of the political powers described as the "ten horns." Note that "the ten horns AND the wild beast" hate the harlot in 17:16. But God is only described as 'putting' something into the "ten horns." The passage says he puts into their hearts to give their "power and authority" to the wild beast until God's thought (about destroying the harlot) is completed. In effect, God sets the stage, and then lets the events take their predictable conclusion.
Take Care
The Babylon mentioned in the old testament was a city-state. Yet the Jehovah's Witnesses somehow twist the interpretaion of "Babylon The Great" to mean all elements of worldly religions that do not adhere to biblical truth as published by the Watchtower.
Do these attributes even sound like the World Empire of False* Reigion:
* False means they do not pledge allegince to the Watchtower.
It is amazing Biometrics that we are given such a thorough description of BTG and the WTBTS comes up with false religion.
