by Terry 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Starting at Mark 9:37 there is a clear indication by Jesus that there was no orthodoxy, no rules as the Churches abd GB would have us believe. It's a short read and if were a better typist, I'd type it. Have no way to copy and paste. Read it. Jesus didn't give a rats --- about in-crowd/out-crowd stuff. God love 'im.
Thanks for this post, Terry.
This place after he died is the place I live in now. It is very open and very personal at the same time. It is a Path.
Maeve
Well, you're correct that many of the originals were tampered with, and you're correct about the early Christians having an open canon; however, after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared to the apostles and many disciples. The apostles also organized congregations, ordained bishops and attempted to standardize doctrine (as the epistles indicate). But in those days the news was bleak:
In a standard 40-day situation the apostles, deeply worried, ask the Lord what lies ahead for them and their work, and receive an appalling reply: They are to be rejected by all men and take their violent exit from the world, what time corrupters and false shepherds will appear within the church, where a growing faction of the worldly-minded will soon overcome and annihilate what remains of the faithful saints. The sheep turn into wolves as the Wintertime of the just settles down the lights go out and the long age of darkness begins under the rule of the Cosmoplanes, disastrously usurping the authority of Christ. There is indeed a promise of comfort and joy, but it is all on the other side and in the distant return of the Lord. The apostles protest, as we do today: Is this a time for speaking of death and disaster? Can all that has transpired be but for the salvation of a few and the condemnation of many? But Jesus remains unyielding: that is not for us to decide or to question. The grim picture is confirmed by the Apostolic Fathers, who are convinced that they are beholding the fulfillment of these very prophecies, and are driven by a tragic sense of urgency and finality. After them the early patristic writers accept the pattern with heavy reluctance, and only the surprising and unexpected victory of the church in the fourth century enable Eusebius's generation to turn the tables and discredit the whole pessimistic tradition. (Dr. Hugh Nibley, Evangelium Quadraginta Dierum: The Forty-day Mission of Christ—The Forgotten Heritage)
Later churchmen placed the apostasia ahead of them and looked with dread for the fulfillment. As for the apostasy itself, it did not come from the outside in, but from the inside out. Congregations began vying with the apostles to elect their own bishops rather than have them appointed from the top down. There also were disputations about basic doctrines like the resurrection and the atonement. One scholar writes: "By the early second century, Christianity had fragmented into dozens of splinter groups with each group charging that the other possessed both forged and corrupted texts." In other words, when the apostles were dead and there was no more inspired leadership, wolves entered the fold, not sparing the flock.
But does this undermine original Christianity? We know that whatever state the Christians were in in the first century, the apostolic leaders were able to warn them to get out of Jerusalem by revelation and "stand in holy places" like Pella, to the north. When the Romans caught the Jews wholly off guard and quickly surrounded them, the Christians were long gone.
@terry
You missed out one very important aspect of marcion. He said there were two gods, the creator god of the OT and a different nicer god of the NT.
@satanus
I gather that you don't subscribe to the flavian/roman invention of jesus as a disinformation of the jewish hero messiah idea. http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/
mP:
Firstly all religion is always headed by the king. This is true today, Queen E is head of the C-of-E, and the same is true of all other flavours of protestanism in Europe. The Czar was head of the russian orthodox church. King Henry VIII created his own religion when he didnt like being bossed by Rome.
Then we just need to look at Jesus and his message. He didnt say anything that would hurt the Romans. His message was the best thing to solve the jewish passion for rebellion and freedom in the first century. Pay your taxes, be good slaves, we are gods chosen rulers.
@theron
YOu need to read up on the first century. Rome had to send 3 legions which was about 1/4 of all its armies to smash the rebellion in judea. There were many false messiahs claiming jehovah has selected them to lead the jews to freedom. Rome wasnt stupid you dont destroy cities that are yours, because that also means no taxes.
Rome was not worried about Jesus. He was the best thing that ever happened to them. Jesus was the opposite to the violence of the OT.
Read up on sicarri etc.
Very interesting. Thank you Terry.
Just Lois
I was going to copy the link to a long Topic I posted years ago here on this discussion board on the subject of Marcion. But, I got sidetracked today. Maybe tomorrow...
@satanus
just look at Mohammad. he invented a new religion based on a mixture of judaism and local customs for his own selfish gains. nobody seriously believes mohammad was inspired. the same should be true of xianity 7 judaism. Actually figure out who controls what religion and who gains the most from a selfish perspective and it all makes sense.
The pattern of tidying up after a religious leader by his followers is a distinct pattern of slowly twisting facts to suit a series of purposes
by a series of people who come afterward.
Look at what the Catholic church was really about: the worship of the host at communion! The little wafer became more important than Christ himself!
This has happened among Jehovah's Witnesses too---Jesus has shrunk down in size and importance to just a name brand while the GOVERNING BODY has magnified itself over everthing but Jehovah.
Religion is like squeezing a water balloon. The bulging distortions depend on who is doing the squeezing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMjkcPNYD_U
For those that believe the characters in the Bible were real, living people
