Human Apostates

by rover 46 Replies latest members private

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    I'm just copying the text from you, here, Your Punkness, and putting in bold the negative characteristics attributed to apostates in this talk. Let's see how many we find!

    You cannot be partaking at the table of Jehovah and the table of demons. These inspired words of the apostle Paul found at 1 Corinthians 10:21 show that two figurative tables are set before us. For the last day-and-a-half, you have been partaking at the table of Truth of Jehovah and haven’t you found it to be good? [clapping]. Jehovah uses human representatives, the faithful and appointed elders to dispense truths for those eating at his table. The apostate Satan disseminates falsehoods in a similar way. He mimics Jehovah by using human representatives. Who are they? If Satan and his demons are chefs in his evil kitchen then human apostates are his helpers. Wicked humans imitate the original apostate Satan. Like Satan, human apostates are unruly men who cook up wicked reasoning and season their brew with poisonous lies that deceive minds. Humanapostates have sat at the table of Jehovah. At Jehovah’s table they enjoyed a table of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of wine kept on the grapes; they were domestics, part of the household of faith and partook of Bible truth, prepared and dispensed by the faithful steward, the Governing Body. But the pushed away from the table of Jehovah. Their preference is to partake of falsehoods at the table of demons. This action of pushing themselves away from the table of Jehovah is described for us at 1 John 2: 19 (They went out of us, for they were not of our sort…).

    Apostates do not drift away from the truth. They deliberately decide to go out from among God’s people because they are not our sort. Human apostates are part of the seed of the serpent spoken of in Genesis 3:15. If we wish to please Jehovah we cannot sit as his table and at the same time be nibbling at the table of demons, eating from the hands of Satan’s helpers, human apostates. So, for the next few minutes we are going to discuss how to identify human apostates and what you must do to protect yourself from the poison of apostasy. Let’s first discuss how to identify human apostates. Apostasy often starts with prideful rejection of counsel and escalates into bitterness and jealousy - James 3:14. Because apostates allow bitterness to take root in their heart, they become defiant of and false to the truth. How does this defiance to the truth manifest itself. The actions of apostates bear three characteristics. These characteristics help us identify human apostates. The first identifying mark of human apostates is commented on at Luke 6: 46 (Why call me Lord, but not do the things I say). Apostates profess to be followers of Jesus, but are not obedient to his commands. A recent example of when this happened was in the mid-70’s when some prominent elders, some who even served at Bethel felt it was below their dignity to witness from house to house, proclaiming the message as commanded by Jesus. They urged others to take it easy because the humble work of witnessing from house to house work was not necessary or unscriptural. The Governing Body expelled the unrepentant apostates from the organization. The faithful slave did not allow the efforts of these apostates to distract it from the primary work of Jehovah’s witnesses, proclaiming God’s word of truth. So the first characteristic we can use to identify human apostates is that they reject God’s service. Many bock at Jesus’ command to go and make disciples. A second characteristic that identifies human apostates is commented on at Acts 20:30 (men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples for themselves). What is it that apostates want? Most are not content to simply leave the faith they once viewed as true. They want to take others with them. Rather than going out and making their own disciples, many apostates seek to draw away Christ’s disciples after themselves. Like a kidnapper who carries an unsuspecting victim away from his family, apostates prey upon trusting members of the congregation, seeking to carry them away from the flock. In addition they seek to cause divisions in the congregation - 2 Peter 2:1 (false teachers who quietly bring in destructive sects). To accomplish their goal of drawing away disciples after themselves or dividing the congregation, apostates may use smooth talk on the internet, on television or through letters to loyal witnesses of Jehovah. So a second characteristic that identifies human apostates is that they seek to draw away Christ’s disciples after themselves and cause divisions. A third characteristic manifested by human apostates is they claim to serve Jehovah, yet they reject his representatives - 3 John 9-10 (does not receive anything from us with respect, using wicked words).

    Apostates claim to serve God, but reject his representatives. They lie to authorities. Through the media they seek to discredit Jehovah’s people and incite bans on our work. For instance, in one country a news report instigated by apostates falsely stated that Jehovah’s witnesses supported Hitler’s regime during world war two. In other countries apostate used the media to accuse Jehovah’s witnesses of refusing to give medical treatment to their children and of deliberately condoning serious sins committed by fellow believers. So a third characteristic that identifies human apostates is that they reject and try to discredit Jehovah’s representatives here on earth.

    Now that we know how to identify human apostates, what must we do to protect ourselves from the poison of apostasy? Romans 16:17 (keep your eye on those causing stumble and avoid them).

    Suppose a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who was infected with a contagious deadly disease. Would you reason that limited contact is okay? Similarly human apostate as mentally diseased and they try to infect others with their disloyal teachings. Jehovah, the great physician tells us to avoid contact with them. What is involved in avoiding apostates? 2 John 10-11 (never receive him into your home or say a greeting, not to become sharers in their wickedness). Avoiding apostates means we will not allow them in our homes, reading their literature, watching TV programs that feature them, examining their websites or adding our comments to their blogs. Why do we take such a firm stand? We do not want to become sharers in their wicked works. We love the God of Truth. We are not interested in twisted teachings that contradict God’s word of truth. We love Jehovah’s organization, the organization that taught us thrilling truths. Truths about Jehovah’s name and its meaning. God’s purpose for the earth. The condition of the dead and the hope of the resurrection. Can you recall how you felt when you first learned these and other precious truths. Why then allow yourself to be sour? Poisoned by anyone who would belittle the organization through which you learned these truths. Does avoiding apostates imply that our faith is not strong enough to discern truth from falsehood? That our faith is not strong enough to discuss different views? Not at all. In our ministry we discuss with those who have different views. Apostates differ from those we meet in our ministry. Apostates are not sincere in their expressions. Their aim is to manipulate your mind and undermine your faith – Psalm 12:2 (untruth they keep speaking). With good reason the Bible then tells us to avoid apostates, just as we would avoid a person who was infected with a deadly contagious disease – 1 John 2:18-19 (many Anti-Christ’s that went out from us).

    Because they oppose the truth, apostates are part of the Anti-Christ. They are liars and deceivers, out to destroy your relationship with Jehovah God and his son Christ Jesus. Therefore we want to avoid them for they are not of our sort. Deuteronomy 32:46-47 (apply you hearts to all the words I am speaking and warning; it means your life).

    Heeding his inspired warnings means our very life. How thankful we are for divine warnings against apostasy. May we show our appreciation by walking in God’s word of Truth. May we stay busy in the work Jesus assigned us to do; Sharing God’s word of Truth with others. By doing so, you will forever enjoy Jehovah’s divine seal of approval.

    So how many did you count? I stopped around 30. I think I get the point. I must be pretty bada-- to get that much attention from the Watchtower. I like it.

    --sd-7

  • flipper
    flipper

    ROVER- Welcome to the board . I totally understand and share your anger towards the WT Society for treating it's members like idiots that should believe everything they say without questioning it. I like your " restaurant food " analogy, very fitting indeed. You are among folks here ( myself included ) who have said " enough is enough " - and we just couldn't take the WT Society's lies, arrogance, and pompous attitude anymore and manipulation of it's JW members. I stopped attending almost 10 years ago and I could probably write a book about all the injustices I experienced while inside as a Witness. Some here actually HAVE written books to assist others.

    Please know we are here as a support to you and offer our unconditional friendship . Awakening from this WT organization manipulating our minds is definitely a process worth pursuing for sure. Take care of yourself, Peace out, Mr. Flipper

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    The words used here are very important. What we note here is that apostates are presumed to have an overwhelming amount of negative personality traits. They're lying pretty much all the time, full of themselves, eager to stop any and everything that Jehovah's Witnesses do. There is very little factual information included here. Let's see what they've got.

    For instance, in one country a news report instigated by apostates falsely stated that Jehovah’s witnesses supported Hitler’s regime during world war two.

    No doubt, this one got a groan from the audience, maybe even a laugh. I assume this is a reference to the 1934 Yearbook, Rutherford's letter to Hitler, in which he says JWs and the German government share the same ideals? Not to mention making a number of anti-Semitic remarks along the way? Obviously the JWs in Germany by and large did not support Hitler's regime. I can't think of anyone who would suggest as much. This is a straw man presentation without actual details.

    In other countries apostate used the media to accuse Jehovah’s witnesses of refusing to give medical treatment to their children and of deliberately condoning serious sins committed by fellow believers.

    Well, the media has reported that a court of law has already found the Watchtower Society liable to the tune of $11 million for not handling child abuse allegations properly. Say what you will, but...it's there. Refusing to give medical treatment to their children? Well, isn't that why the courts have to take custody of these kids to save their lives, because the parents think that God will murder the child at Armageddon if he or she takes blood to save their life? Here I thought being an apostate was the unforgivable sin, not taking blood. The New Testament doesn't say that eating blood is an offense for which anyone was ever or should ever be booted out of the congregation, so why does the Watchtower? But by not being specific, referring to "medical treatment" vaguely, this again presents a straw man, lacking in detail and easily rejected by the JW audience.

    The rest is a gigantic ad hominem attack.

    A recent example of when this happened was in the mid-70’s when some prominent elders, some who even served at Bethel felt it was below their dignity to witness from house to house, proclaiming the message as commanded by Jesus. They urged others to take it easy because the humble work of witnessing from house to house work was not necessary or unscriptural.

    I suppose the discrepancies in how the New World Translation handles the original Greek term for "house to house" won't be up for discussion. Nor the fact that nowhere does the Bible mention Jesus going from door to door, much less collecting field service reports from his disciples about how many hours they spent knocking on doors. Jesus never once issues a command to go from door to door to preach; he merely says to go and make disciples. His own life example showed that the method didn't matter to him--he'd preach everywhere he could find people, at the market, the synagogue, when he was at a well, when someone invited him to dinner, at the temple, anywhere and everywhere. To suggest that not going from door to door is somehow disobedient to Jesus is to reflect that the Watchtower believes it itself is Jesus and that it can issue commands in his name. Perhaps the Governing Body feels that honest reading of the Bible is "below their dignity".

    I seriously doubt a man with Ray Franz' credentials, for instance, was urging anyone to 'take it easy'. After having spent decades in service himself? Ha! If he was taking it easy, you wouldn't have appointed him to the Governing Body in the first place. Unless...you're admitting that you're okay with people taking it easy...you're not doing that, are you?

    The faithful slave did not allow the efforts of these apostates to distract it from the primary work of Jehovah’s witnesses, proclaiming God’s word of truth.

    Well, you went on a witch hunt and burned at the stake everyone that read the Bible too much. Congratulations on your success in imitating the Catholic Church.

    --sd-7

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free

    If I apostosize from being human, will that exempt me from paying taxes?

    W

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    sd-7:

    What we note here is that apostates are presumed to have an overwhelming amount of negative personality traits.

    JW literature constantly harps on about how important it is to 'love truth', and how urgent it is to 'let people know the truth', and that 'failing to do so results in bloodguilt'.

    It is those exact reasons that so called 'apostates' want to share what they've learned with other JWs. But 'obedient' JWs are not really interested in truth, they are only interested in 'obeying'. But when the role is reversed, this exact samezeal supposedly becomes 'evil'.

    Consider the following hypothetical example of a Catholic who becomes a JW:

    What is it that the new Witness wants? He is not content to simply leave the faith he once viewed as true. He wants to take others with him. He seeks to draw his former associates with him. He approaches his former associates, seeking to carry them away to his new flock. To accomplish his goal, he may use publications of the Watch Tower Society and ask subtle questions.

    Obviously, all I've done there is lifted the 'example' straight from the scripted talk minus the ad hominem puffery and switched the roles. Without all the negative window dressing with which the script talk tries to impugn so-called 'apostates', the 'methods' are exactly the same as the preaching done by JWs.

    I also found this part of the scripted talk funny:

    A recent example of when this happened was in the mid-70’s when some prominent elders, some who even served at Bethel felt it was below their dignity to witness from house to house, proclaiming the message as commanded by Jesus.

    The funny part? ... "recent" ... So the mid-70s is recent. And yet if you cite JW literature from as "recent" as the mid-70's (or even the 90s), you'll probably be considered apostate, or at the very least, out of step with present truth. In another thread I indicated that as recent as 1987, JW literature was still explicitly (and quite laughably) stating that the 'creative days' were literally 7,000 years each. But the double-standard is completely fine in JW-land, because after all, Truth™ always trumps truth.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Wt doesn't like getting its salesforce apostacised.

    S

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    LOL some elder brought up the 'apostate' issue with me and I told him I'm technically an apostate to the Anglican church because I got baptised Anglican and 19 years later baptised JW! Apostate can be a matter of perspective.

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    That symposium part looks like it was lifted straight out of WTs on apostates. Nothing new. Just more hate and fear mongering.

    Thanks Punk my friend, for putting it here because there was no way I was going to listen to it. Far quicker to skim it.

    Also notice how much the org is mentioned, ergo Jehovah?

    • yet they reject his representatives [x 3]
    • The Governing Body expelled the unrepentant apostates from the organization. The faithful slave did not allow the efforts of these apostates
    • dispensed by the faithful steward, the Governing Body. But the pushed away from the table of Jehovah.
    • Jehovah uses human representatives, the faithful and appointed elders to dispense truths for those eating at his table.
    • "We love Jehovah’s organization, the organization that taught us thrilling truths."

    Urgh I can't go on, feeling sick.

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    Jeffro - Ah, the old dregs. Interesting the WBT$ are the dregs of human society.

    SD7 - Interesting to see the hate speech in bold. I'm sure there's more between the lines too. This is why I'm positive the paedophile loving GB and their bun boys know what they're doing. They wouldn't employ such OBVIOUS propaganda methods if they didn't.

    If these idiots had the real truth they'd just state what it is and it'd stand up on it's own merits.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    I listened to it this talk i thought it was awful considering all the things they have taught over the years.

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