Valedictorian Rips Up Preapproved Speech, Recites Prayer Instead

by Sam Whiskey 469 Replies latest jw friends

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “What he did was emphasise his belief that minorities shouldn't have a say and that HIS religion should be pushed on them.”

    Simon,

    During his graduation speech Costner didn’t emphasize anything. After his graduation speech Costner did emphasize something:

    Here is what he emphasized:

    “Let me first say that every person, regardless of their religious affiliation – whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or any other belief – should be allowed to say what they want because of the First Amendment.”—(Roy Costner, underlining added)

    If we accept Costner at his word then what you say is false.

    If we accept Costner’s act of saying persons other than of his own religion should have and exercise the same liberty he took during graduation ceremonies then what you say is false.

    My ability to continue posting here is getting compromised. I’m not sure I can respond further today.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Simon
    Simon

    Words are cheap. Let's look at what he did. He pushed his own christian religious beliefs on others at an occassion that was supposed to be free of ALL religious promotion.

    Re-reading this thread and you do nothing but twist and squirm and change what you say and the reasons for everything. And yet you think I'm the one coming out with false statements?

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “Marvin: When you've finished fawning over the noble Christian who simply trotted out the mantra that appealed to the masses, ask yourself how the lone Muslim kid sat in the audience feels while all the Christians whoop and cheer around him or the (OMG) actual kid who can string together independent thought and has figured out that religion is just so much bullshit and would rather not hear it.”

    Simon,

    I suspect the lone Muslim kid was heartened when he heard Costner say “every person, regardless of their religious affiliation – whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or any other belief – should be allowed to say what they want because of the First Amendment.”

    Whether seeing Costner stand up and express his beliefs when he was not supposed to was heartening to the lone Muslim kid I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe not.

    Did you know Costner was part of a local news team? I wonder if that team contained any non-Christians, and how those team members viewed his act, knowing the history as they would have? I’ll have to look into that when time allows.

    As for religion being bullshit, that’s very narrow minded to think. Believe it or not religious preference has had historical and contemporary advantages in substantive terms. For example, holding religious views has had a tendency to reduce levels of suicide among person’s holding religious views. I’m not saying that specific teachings of any particular religion are nonsensical or sensible. I’m saying that religion is not “just so much bullshit”. And I’m saying that from an academic and clinical perspective and not from a religious perspective.

    “THIS is why that sort of populist stunt shouldn't be allowed. It's why we have rules - not to protect the powerful or the majority but to guard against them abusing their position and to act as a shield for the minorities who are easily victimised or made to feel less worthy.”

    I’m not sure who “we” is in “why we have rules”. I’ve lived under the US Constitution my whole life, and its liberties guaranteed under the US Constitution at issue here. I don’t know what liberties you’ve lived under, now or in the past.

    In the United States there is a rich and beneficial history to people standing up in acts of civil disobedience to further and keep to the fore what and how liberties should be exercised.

    “I'm sorry, but I think your opinion on this is completely misguided.”

    I respect that you disagree, and have no problem with that. In fact I’m glad for the discussion, and I’m glad you’ve made and maintained this place to have rigorous discussion. I wouldn’t want it any other way.

    “Words are cheap. Let's look at what he did.”

    I did look at what he did.

    Costner did commit an act of civil disobedience by saying something he wasnot supposed to say.

    Costner did go on record with a nationally syndicated interview saying something he did not have to say.

    He said: “every person, regardless of their religious affiliation – whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or any other belief – should be allowed to say what they want because of the First Amendment.”

    I’ve examined what Costner said and what he did.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • zed is dead
    zed is dead

    So, according to Marvin, if a valedictorian was a Westboro Baptist Church member, it would have been appropriate for him to say "God Hates Fags" in his speech.

    zed

  • Simon
    Simon
    I suspect the lone Muslim kid was heartened when he heard Costner say “ every person, regardless of their religious affiliation – whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim , Atheist, or any other belief – should be allowed to say what they want because of the First Amendment .”

    Bzzzzzt. Fail.

    Costner only trotted out the excuse after the speech, not as part of the speech.

    Believe it or not religious preference has had historical and contemporary advantages in substantive terms. For example, holding religious views has had a tendency to reduce levels of suicide among person’s holding religious views.

    References please because I think that's crap.

    I’m not sure who “ we ” is in “ why we have rules ”. I’ve lived under the US Constitution my whole life, and its liberties guaranteed under the US Constitution at issue here. I don’t know what liberties you’ve lived under, now or in the past.

    Wow, you just cannot simply answer a very plain statement can you?

    I did look at what he did .
    Costner did go on record with a nationally syndicated interview saying something he did not have to say .

    What?

    You try and trist "what someone said" into being "this is what he did say ... therefore it's what he did".

    What he said and what he did were very very different. You obviously refuse to see that but it's plain for anyone else to see.

    So, according to Marvin, if a valedictorian was a Westboro Baptist Church member, it would have been appropriate for him to say "God Hates Fags" in his speech.

    No, Marvin can simultaneously hold multiple viewpoints at the same time, all of which should be considered tuth and fact even if they contradict. Being able to abandon and switch opinions mid-discussion helps avoids the inconvenience of ever having to say "oh yeah, I was wrong".

    This discussion is now about someone standing up for truth and justice and civil rights when a few pages back it was about academic accomplishment and someone's personal motivations.

    Tomorrow it will be about the price of milk and how Christians have saved more people from wars throughout history than any group of people ever so we should all just shut up and listen to what they have top tell us. SHUT UP AND LISTEN !!!

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    I looked up the news organization Costner is associated with and emailed two questions:

    1. Does Liberty Speaks have any contributors who are of a faith other than Christian, and if so how do those contributors feel about Roy Costner’s inclusion of the Lord’s Prayer in his graduation speech?

    2. Has Liberty Speaks had any feedback from non-Christian students attending Liberty High about Roy Costner’s inclusion of the Lord’s Prayer in his graduation speech, and if so what is that feedback?

    Should be interesting to see the response.

    Their web site is: libertyspeaks.net

    Marvin Shilmer

  • zed is dead
    zed is dead

    Simon,

    I agree, Marvin's thought process is like a fart in a skillet.

    zed

  • Simon
    Simon
    Has Liberty Speaks had any feedback from non-Christian students attending Liberty High about Roy Costner’s inclusion of the Lord’s Prayer in his graduation speech, and if so what is that feedback?

    So people's feedback get's filtered through them?

    Yeah, no possible problem there!

    Now, about that hardly-used bridge ...

  • Simon
    Simon

    I can already read what they write. Religious militants:

    "What an awesome trip for our staff to have the privilege to go on! God has truly blessed us. We are so humble for this experience and to see one of our own Roy Costner spread what God has done nationally was a experience all on its own." (facebook)

    http://www.libertyspeaks.net/headlines/2013/01/29/pickens-county-schools-decision-on-prayer/

    In case you don’t know, the Pickens County School Board has received a complaint for having prayers before the board meetings. A group calling themselves Freedom From Religion Organization based out of Wisconsin is where this has stemmed from.

    Tonight’s meeting had an amazing turnout as you can see from the pictures below. There were hundreds in attendance and cars all the way out to the stop sign near the old BJ Skelton Career Center. After the school board heard from thirty minutes of people (all they would allow), the School Board’s Lawyer spoke. According to the lawyer, and several other prestigious firms including the SC State Attorney’s Office, their recommendation is to only have a moment of silence. If they did want to challenge their recommendation was to have a nonsectarian prayer.

    They had a vote to seek legal help in trying to determine the right plan of action. During the discussion we heard a monotonous speech from Alex Sata describing all the details he’s researched. Next we heard from Ben Trotter and Jim Shelton they totally disagreed to even finding legal advice and instead going full force opposing. The other board members exclaimed there proposal to approve the motion.

    In the end the vote carried for the board to go into executive session and listen legal advice/options.

    It is up to US to insure this does not go all the way through and to maintain Christianity in our schools. It starts with the board, but where will it go from here…

    But you believe whatever lies that tell you Marvin. I can already see what they are about thank you very much. They speak out of both sides of their mouth it seems. Typical Christians, fighting their good fight and lying about it all the way.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    It would seem MS id right about the suicide rates amongst believers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    VANCOUVER, BC—Regular church-goers are less likely to attempt suicide, a new study suggests.

    "We found that people who attend [a place of worship] are half as likely to have reported a suicide attempt in the past year," says Daniel Rasic, a psychiatrist at the University of Manitoba.

    Rasic's research team based their findings on their analysis of data taken from Statistics Canada's Canadian Community Health Survey of almost 37,000 respondents.

    Researchers also found church attendance reduced the likelihood of attempted suicides even when they factored out the influence of social supports, such as people who can offer information and advice, affection and love or just a listening ear.

    "The common thinking was: you go to church and you automatically have a support group, and that people with good support groups are less likely to commit suicide," says Rasic, currently a resident at Dalhousie University in Halifax.

    "We've shown that there's also something about the place. There's still a decreased rate of suicide outside of the social supports."

    The study does not try to explain why this occurs. Rasic offers two possibilities—that most religions teach against suicide, and that studies show people who are religious from a young age are less likely to develop a mental illness, such as depression, later in life.

    "Depression is quite strongly associated with attempted suicide," he says.

    But Burnaby church-goer and author Marja Bergen, who has struggled for years with depression and bipolar disorder, believes the real answer lies in the personal relationship that anyone can have with God, regardless of their mental state.

    "There's something about the kind of people that make a decision to go and worship God," she says. "What matters to them is not necessarily the people around them, but their connection with God. And then there's all the things that go with worship—the prayer, the singing, being part of a community of faith as you worship together."

    Bergen adds, "I know I do feel suicidal once in a while, but I've never gone as far as trying anything, because my faith has given me a lot of meaning in life."

    The researchers also found that the rate of attempted suicide did not decrease among people who called themselves "spiritual" but did not adhere to any organized religion.

    The study is published in the Journal of Affective Disorders.

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