by orbison11 40 Replies latest jw friends
I understand your conflict with this, I felt it too.
What I have personally come to grips with is ... the word trinity is a man-made word to try and fit God into a neat package to explain Him and understand Him ... not possible.
Is it wrong to think of Jesus as God? John 1:1, John 1:28, 1 Peter 3:15 (footnote NWT study edition)
If the Holy Spirit is God's force and is sent by Him (and Jesus) to accomplish His will, is it wrong to refer to this spirit as God?
Hey orbison11!
The internal conflict is not your fault. It is by the design of the "god of religion".
What one believes in relation to the trinity is not a salvation issue.
However those that would steal our salvation, accomplish their theft, by getting us to focus on doctrinal dissection instead of the "unabridged gospel" or "full good news".
We become their prey when we make "unity in doctrine" instead of "unity in Christ" our focus.
This apostasy was born at Nicaea. Hence "Nicaean ethnocentrism".
According to scripture "the truth" is:
a) a person (John 14:6)
b) inseparably tied up with "the good news" (Gal 2:5,14; Eph 1:13; Col 1:5)
The "God of Abraham", our heavenly father, desires us to become intimate with the whole gospel message, yield to it, and obey it.
(Why does the "true religion" secretly blind its followers to the "Good News" according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms?)
wow, thank you all so much
i just feel, in my heart, that the trinity is man made
seems having common sense when reading the Bible shows that Jesus is the son of God,
(hence his praying to his Father,etc)
and just about all of the churches i have (tried) attending, they believe in the trinity
and when questioned, they offer the deep response of comparing the trinity to either an egg or water (steam,water,ice,)etc
although many of the churches dont seem toreally give a darn what you believe,as long as you claim to be born again,etc
thanks
The real problem with JW ontological theology is that one can not have a relationship with an angel. That would be spiritism. You are permitted to tack His name onto your prayers, but that is about it. And yet Jesus calls us into relationship with Himself. Salvation consists of knowing Father and Son personally. It's not believing the Trinity that saves; it is coming to Jesus with the burden of our sin and calling upon the resurrected Christ for salvation. Romans 10:8-13
In line with what Vanderhoven7 said, knowledge ABOUT the father and son is no good.
Knowledge cannot save us.
It is a personal relationship that is required.
Know the father and the son (in a relationship).
Not knowledge about the father and son.
Subtle but deadly difference.
Compare John 17:3:
We know our family and friends because of a relationship with them. We have knowledge ABOUT persons like President Obama, Bill Clinton or Bill Gates because we read and hear ABOUT them, but most likely have never met them. Actually a huge difference.
I have yet to meet an Episcopalian priest who believes in St. Athanasius Creed. Someone recently explained it in terms that I found useful. Every individual experiences God in sundry ways--if one believes in God. The Trinity is merely an awkward attempt to explain this phenomena. It makes no sense when viewed as a literal statement. It makes much sense if viewed as an attempt to state that God comes to us in various guises, depending on the times, culture, and our moods.
My personal view is that a God worthy of the name should be too complex for humans to comprehend fully. Such a God would be vulgar. The OT YWH is amoral. He is a perfect reflection of the culture. Jesus' God is markedly different. Artists love to show Jesus in their own time. The Trinity is one such attempt. It took me years to try to understand modern religions from the Witness ancient Israelite take. Questions are more important than answers.
If someone sees no issues with a Trinitarian viewpoint or its opposite, they are thougthless. The Witness view is not the mainstream nonTrinitarian view. No other religion casts Jesus in the role the Witnesses do. It is similar to the Mormon view in being off the track completely. I expect that since these two groups were formed around the same time, some cultural issues explain it.
I like that Fernando. Saving faith is divine faith born of relationship with the Almighty, where the indwelling Holy Spirit reveals and glorifies the Son in the believer. Where the Son is not glorified/given the same honor as the Father, religion is present, but saving faith is absent. Faith knows there is a name above all names to which every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the glory of the Father, that Jesus Christ is LORD.
Iglesia Ni Cristo (8 million members)
United Church of God (Congregations in 50 countries)
Living Church of God (Congregations in 45 countries)
Christadelphians (Congregations in 120 countries)
Church of God, 7th Day (300,000 members)
Assemblies of Yahweh (4,000 members)
Biblical Unitarians (I don't have numbers for this one)
Various Jehovah's Witness splinter groups
One of the great tragedies of Witness theology is the demotion of Jesus Christ. While I do not and never will believe that Jesus is equal to his Father but that the Father always has been, still is, and always will be the Almighty God, vastly superior to any and everybody else, Jesus has been appointed King and is our Savior.
That means not only prayers in his name are proper but prayers to him are as well. He himself said that we should not simply ask in his name, but that when we do so he himself would answer our requests. We must recognize the fact that Jesus has been granted all authority in heaven and earth by his Father and that the Father will judge no one at all, but has committed all judging to his Son. Furthermore, it is Jesus who will raise the dead in line with his office as King in the kingdom.
I especially appreciated what Fernando and Vanderhoven7 have stated and repeated. Knowledge is not enough. A living, breathing relationship is most essential. As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, we were never taught or shown how to cultivate one with our Maker. We do not need an organization or membership in a religious community to have a relationship with the Father and the Son. A community can give us encouragement and help, which is one reason I have taken part in the Metropolitan Community Church here in Denver. But I also know that I am the only person who can initiate and sustain a personal relationship with my Creator.
So while I still believe that Yahweh and Jesus are separate and unequal, I know how important that I love and honor both. This thread has been a wonderful reminder of that essential fact for me.
Quendi
Quendi
