The most IMPORTANT christian topic you will ever need to understand! GARBAGE IN=GARBAGE OUT

by Terry 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    THE BIBLE is the basis for christianity.

    Interpretation of scripture is the hallmark of Doctrine.

    Jehovah's Witnesses base their claim of TRUE religion on their interpretations of scripture.

    What follows is the foundation of all belief and all refutation of false belief.

    If you don't understand this topic you will be on the losing end of every christian argument about TRUTH.

    The Basis of Christian Belief in the bible was accidentally destroyed....a long time ago.

    It was corrupted by the finest men who ever lived...but..it was wholly UNintentional!

    I propose to tell that story as simply as possible:

    HOW THE BIBLE BECAME CORRUPT
    and the Impact this has on Jehovah's Witnesses

    1. Jesus stories were told orally because the population of those times was illiterate. Many heard and believed and passed the story on by retelling.

    2. Non-believers were critical.

    3. Believers started shaping the stories for the sake of making the “truth” more logical more coherent and harmonious.

    What was the net result?
    The original story was changed. As the original changed it vanished.

    What about the written stage?

    The need arose to PROVE (using proof texts) true teaching.

    ______________________________________________________

    Each listener heard and retold his or her own "version" of the story.

    By writing things down they become fixed. Just as we prove our words today by using a dictionary.

    (A dictionary doesn’t originate pronunciation and meaning. It reflects the majority use becoming a reference of orthodox use for others.)

    Common sense question:

    Why would any sane person stake their life, their family, their eternity on something they knew was a lie or a distortion? It would be blasphemy and unthinkable.

    In fact--it DIDN'T happen that way.

    Note: Error comes from the honest efforts to “improve” what is written or spoken.

    This is what is meant by CORRUPTION: What is changed is no longer the same.

    Original words disappear and new ones appear.

    How Can "error" and "corruption" like this Happen?:

    If you are a translator you want your copy to communicate what is true.

    You’d change any “mistake” and make it conform to what YOU thought was the correct (true) word, phrase or meaning. (Corrupt the original).

    ___________________

    Small example:

    Leave the mistake as it is. (Uncorrupt)

    1. Omit the mistake. (Corrupt)
    2. Change it and make it come out "right". (Corrupt)

    If a copyist or translator saw TWO different versions of a story told what could they do to remove the dissonance?

    They would harmonize by changing them. (corrupt.)

    If the copyist or translator comes to a text that contradicts their own personal theology, what could they honestly do? Transmit the “error” (preserve the original) or correct the error? (corrupt.)

    Little by little, copy by copy, the ORIGINAL vanished.

    "Improvements" go to the next generation of copyists and translators (which they, in turn, "Improved" and corrupted further!

    Constant "improvements" and "clarifying" efforts expunged the original words, phrases, meanings of the original. (corrupt.)

    _______________________________________

    AS LONG AS THE ACTUAL AUTOGRAPH ORIGINAL REMAINS INTACT you can still compare and see where the changes happened.

    Right?

    Those ORIGINALS do NOT exist! They wore out or were discarded, burned or left to deteriorate.

    How did anybody allow that happen?

    Think about it!

    The late eminent Catholic scholar, Raymond Brown, wrote:

    "…neither evangelist liked Marks’s redundancies, awkward Greek expressions, uncomplimentary presentation of the disciples and Mary, and embarrassing statements about Jesus. When using Mark, both expanded the Markan accounts in the light of post-resurrectional faith.

    The fact that Matthew and Luke freely altered and “corrected” Mark strongly suggests that they did not consider it to be inviolable “inspired scripture”

    In view of the above what can we conclude concerning our use of the Bible today?

    What about concordences? Bible dictionaries? All are based on what words we have in our translation.

    1.We cannot use the actual words of scripture to discern shades of meaning.

    Why?

    We DON’T HAVE THE ACTUAL WORDS of scripture. Only the originals had those exact words. They no longer exist.

    We can’t proof text our teachings and our doctrines by citing scripture.

    We can’t prove the “harmony” of the gospels (copyists MADE it happen!)

    We can’t quote the bible’s claim of inspiration to prove inspiration.(circular reasoning.)

    1. Nobody corrupted the bible on purpose. It is the result of pious fraud. By "fraud" we mean UNINTENTIONAL.
    2. The earliest manuscripts are hundreds of years removed from the originals and are themselves copies of copies of copies.
    3. Over the centuries the distortions became part of Christianity and its avowed Orthodoxy of necessary belief. Today by looking backward at the fictionalizing of scripture we cannot restore the originals and determine what no longer remains. We can only make guesses.

    _____4.The Catholic Church adjusted their teaching because they were the first to understand this important fact. They substitute their Majesterium (traditions of men) as compensating for the lack of purity in scripture__________________

    WHAT DO BIBLE APOLOGISTS SAY?

    They create a false analogy. They compare ancient works of Philosophy and History to the Divinely Inspired Word of God. Why?

    So that they can say "We have far more copies of scripture than we do of Plato or Aristotle".

    So what?

    So that they can say having MORE corrupt copies of a purported DIVINE book means we have more PROOF.

    False reasoning!

    If you have a counterfeit dollar bill in one room and one million counterfeit bills in another-- which room contains more REAL CURRENCY?

    We have a great many ordained ministers who are NOT WELL TRAINED who are making these apologist arguments.

    Combine that with Jehovah's Witnesses who actually assert the bible is without contradiction.

    It is in the INTEREST of people who gain power by use of scripture that SCRIPTURE BE ELEVATED above what it deserves historically.

    Exerpt from:

    Presidential Lecture, Society of Biblical Literature, SE Region
    March 1997

    "A surprising number of PhD's in NT--we may as well admit it--are barely competent in Greek. Even more are unable to make sense of the critical

    apparatus that stands at the foot of every page of the Nestle- Aland Greek New Testament that everyone uses. And even those who can construe the

    apparatus are rarely equipped to understand why one reading, the one found in the text, has been printed, while others are found only in the

    apparatus--let alone to come to independent judgments about the adequacy of the decision of the United Bible Society's committee, comprised of Kurt

    and Barbara Aland, Bruce Metzger, and others. Commentators typically ignore textual problems, not simply because they have other things to do but

    also because in many instances they don't have the wherewithal to deal with the problems..."

    So--what are we finally left with that we think we KNOW?

    1.There was a Jesus

    2.He did some amazing things and inspired followers who didn't know what to make of him.

    3.He gave specific instruction which weren't clearly understood.

    4.When he was put to death there was a huge shakeup

    5.Many claimed to see him and talk to him AFTER he died.

    6.Everybody connected with his teaching clearly believed he would return and end the Roman rule with a Messianic one.

    7.The first generation of believers kept expecting the apocalyptic end which Jesus had spoken of.

    8. Roman armies brought an apocalypse to Judaism in the same way 1914 brought WWI instead of Armageddon.

    9.All the True Believers had to do a RE-think about what these things meant. Clearly they had got it wrong in some significant way.

    10. Writings appeared, stories were circulated, issues were discussed and reshuffled. Groups began to form around new interpretations.

    This is when the distortions mixed thoroughly with whatever true stories there were.

    Perhaps the True stories were too mundane and puzzling or outrageous to compete with the false stories.

    What we have today is the result of the chaos and the arguments and the debates.

    JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES CANNOT HAVE THE TRUTH because they base their private interpretations on the bible, which,

    as we have just seen--is entirely UNRELIABLE as a document/documents transmitting UNCORRUPT communication from the Divine!

    Garbage in=garbage out

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Another major World faith that suffers from exactly the same thing is Islam.

    The Quran was not written until a long time after its "revelation" to Muhammad, what had changed in that time ? It is known that much was changed.

    Christians and followers of Islam need great faith to continue in their chosen religion, their sacred books are no foundation whatsoever.

    For them to claim that their Books are authoratative is a nonsense, neither the Bible nor the Quran has any provenance.

  • designs
    designs

    As long as snakes can talk to humans there shouldn't be any problems with the Bible.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    I thought the Holy spirit was involved somewhere

    Did you ever think that Terry?

  • Terry
    Terry

    UCANTNOME: I thought the Holy spirit was involved somewhere

    Did you ever think that Terry?

    Sure. That's the very first question you have to ask: was there a miraculous "hand" in the preservation of the bible and its intrinsic Truth.

    Here is how I break that down. See if you can agree or not.

    1.The Holy Spirit can be viewed as a "get out of jail free" card or a Joker-is-wild way of explaining away everything. If that is what it is.

    2. The so-called "preservation" of bible manuscripts is up against some huge disproof of a very practical nature. The originals are non-existent, the copies of originals are non-existent, the copies of copies don't begin to show up until about three hundred years after the fact when the Catholic coalition put a strong pagan hand into the mix.

    3.The manuscripts that have been found are usually scraps from rotting landfills until way late on the timescale. That's not much of a miraculous preservation.

    4.Thousands of contradictory writings came out of the same period as the scripts finally approved by committee for canon. Among the "accepted" canon books it can be conclusively demonstrated where there have been obvious TAMPERING, corruption, additions and deletions. If something is PRESERVED by the divine Holy Spirit.....you can't have it BOTH ways!

    5.The Protestant Reformation dealt a huge blow to what had already been approved and preserved for over a thousand and a half years. Was the holy spirit that careless so as to leave so many holes in the "truth"?

    6.Every denomination, sect and cult lays claim to the very SAME Holy Spirit directing THEMSELVES to the exclusion of the others. So, claiming the Spirit is problematic like every other part of the equation. Nobody has a monopoly on claims--only proof.

  • mP
    mP

    @terry

    . Jesus stories were told orally because the population of those times was illiterate. Many heard and believed and passed the story on by retelling.

    mP:

    What proof have you got these stories were ever told. The gospels are greek and most scholars accept were not writtein in Judea to begin with. The contradictions show that there is a lot of creativity in what they write. Matthew for examples tells of zombies and solar eclipses and other grand things that are obvious frauds.

    Basically there is no proof Jesus ever existed and if there was a prototype for the character christians think they know, he was very very different. People are also didhonest in their readings. They attribute all sorts of grand moral virtue to JC, but he was deeply flawed.

    For example he never criticizes Rome, and yet encourages the poor to pay taxes, amd slvavs to be obedient. Where is the grand freedom of Jesus there ?

  • mP
    mP

    Terry

    2. Non-believers were critical.

    mP:
    What proof have you got of this ? I think you will find that the jews were a persecuted peoples in the first century. Most of their persecutions and the stories have been stolen and relabeled as xian martyrs, when they werent. Ther eis little proof of any form of christianity remotely like our christian theology.

    Christians are basically liars, and they steal and lie about history all over the place.

  • mP
    mP

    Phizzy

    nother major World faith that suffers from exactly the same thing is Islam.

    The Quran was not written until a long time after its "revelation" to Muhammad, what had changed in that time ? It is known that much was changed.

    mP:

    You are right. There was a recent discovering about 10 or 20 yrs ago, in Yemen where they found what is the oldest Koran in existance. Problem is on examination with infra red and other techs one can see the text has been changed. I think the gov burnt the Koran for this reason.

    The stories of the hadiths are also a joke. The main schisms in Islam each accept different sets of hadiths. They also tell the story about some scholar back then that had to sort through hundreds of thousnads of hadiths and he eventually selected only 2 or 3% as genuine.

  • mP
    mP

    UCANTNOME: I thought the Holy spirit was involved somewhere

    MP:

    The holyspirit is a fraud. Many religions believed in magical flying birds. Egyptian art has horus a falcon, and the dove also appears in the Noah story.

    The stories in the bible are utter nonsense. If Paul coudl raise the dead and curethe sick why would anybody be afraid of Rome. And even more absurdly why would anybody remain a slave of Rome, if they could walk away under the holy spirits protection. Why would Paul and Jesus encourage believers to remain in subjection. Remove the fantasy and its obvious that early christianity was a means to tell the poor to shutup and take their misery because the next life will be better.

    Rome would be pleased in such a lie.

  • Terry
    Terry

    MP, you didn't read the OP. You just jumped in and started commenting. Read the OP first and THEN comment.

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