Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    jst2laws,

    : The men I knew in the 60's and 70's were mostly incompetent.

    Such a statement only has value if there were times when similar men in the WTS were "mostly competent." Otherwise, its a non-sequitur.

    Since the WTS has had 12 decades to prove itself, and since you just eliminated two of those decades, we still have 10 decades or 100 years to deal with.

    So let's get to work, ok?

    You've already covered 60's to 70's, so let's deal with 80's to now.

    1980's: "apostacy paranoia; more rules and regulations; clamping down; stifling; pharisees and a ship without-a-rudder.

    1990's: a totally lost religious organization. No Fred Franz. Recycled articles. Nothing to motivate or stimulate. The 1995 "This Generation" fiasco.

    2000 to present: too afraid to say anything except warn about the Internet. 1914 is in the last Century. They're an apocalyptic religion in times when mankind is making progress faster and helping each other faster than the WTS can concoct their next false prediction.

    Now, let's to back in time:

    JFR:

    1917-1942: Rulership by a psychopathic egolomaniac. All of his doctrines are now discarded, except the name he chose for his pet cult in 1931 and his "two-class" dogma that he made to be "truth" in 1935.

    CTR:

    1878-1917: Amost all of his doctrines are discarded too and ALL of Chronology is discarded, except for his make-shit explanation for 1914. Major embarrassments over 1874, 1878, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1918.
    Not to mention his pyramidology.

    So, what's left to salvage out of 120 years of idiocy?

    This:

    No hellfire (not unique to JWs. Many other faiths came to that same conclusion)

    No trinity. DOH! Ever hear of UNITarians? Wonder where the "UNI" came from?

    Soul sleep: DOH! See "NO hellfire" above.

    Worldwide Preaching of the "Good News" - despite all the efforts, money and resources spent since around 1919, most people in the civilized world, say just the USA for example, doesn't have a flipping CLUE what that "Good News they've been "preaching" for 80+ years actually IS. They've FAILED at that one, too.

    Take an informal survey, jst2laws: ask 100 people if they've heard of dubs. Most of them will say "yes." Next, ask those same 100 people if they know the most important message dubs preach and have preached since JFR was promoting his own personal crap from 1921 forward. Note the vacant stares on their faces and tell us in here (honestly) if these people today know a single thing about the "Good News of God's Kingdom" as dubs have been and do "preach."

    So, I assert therefore that none of the final remaining "core values" of Jehovah's Witnesses are the least bit important in the big picture, even excusing them for their past excesses and failures.

    The WTS is a fraud before God.

    Farkel

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    OK Jesus said 'a slave could be faithful or he could be evil'

    ONE SLAVE!!!!! there's no way a faithful slave and an evil slave can coexist becuase it's NOT about a klass or a group of people or some divine appointment. It's an illustration (like all the others before and after it) about keeping on the watch and how they could prove themselves faithful or evil by their actions.

    Ven

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    jst2laws,

    A statement of yours stimulated me to respond. You said:

    : While the “buck” stops with them I suspect these guys are still followers. Not to back up and sound as if to excuse them, they seem to believe their own propaganda that what was printed in the past was from God. To change what is in print must be scary to men who are surely aware of their own ineptitude.

    Let's cut this down to the bottom line:

    Then:

    "We will put something in print that we aren't sure about, or maybe don't even embrace totally, or even believe."

    Now:

    "We just read what we wrote in the past, and since we wrote it, we must believe it. And we must force everyone else to believe it. Why? Because we WROTE it, that's why."

    Do you see something wrong with this picture, jst2laws?

    Farkel

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Ven,
    You know I love you and respect your viewpoint. You have suffered from this system and you and your family continue to suffer every day.

    ONE SLAVE!!!!! there's no way a faithful slave and an evil slave can coexist becuase it's NOT about a klass or a group of people or some divine appointment. It's an illustration (like all the others before and after it) about keeping on the watch and how they could prove themselves faithful or evil by their actions.
    What is clear is a system, organization, “tree” or whatever is hurting people. This is not the same issue as a “faithful” slave or an “evil” slave. This we agree is not a Klass issue but an individual issue. I’m still wondering, can condemn the system without labeling each individual “leader” of the system as evil? I liked the thoughts brought out here, but still see bases for condemning only the system but leaving room for the possibility that some individuals, even so called leaders, really believe they are doing “God’s will”.

    Your signature is great: "I survived you, now the questions is 'Can you survive me???'" You keep coming up with originals.

    Jst2laws

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    I hadn't really read the whole thread, but I saw the reference to the 'evil slave' so I thought I'd comment on that!

    How can just the sytem be evil, when it's men that created the system?

    Ven
    PS I got the quote from Ashley Judd in her new movie

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Hello Siegswife,

    I once told the most famous JW "apostate" that for about 4 weeks I thought he was the most important person in the world until I realized his importance was only in connection with the WTS which is nothing but a fraud. His response was that he has had bigger disappointments in his life than my disillusion.

    I do not believe the current GB or the Watchtower Society is the evil slave any more than I believe Russell was the faithful slave. It is just another modern day "snare and a ratchet". Nothing prophetic nor scripturally significant. It probably only exists because Rutherford, after chasing away 75% of the so called 'faithful', effectively played Lee Iacoca in salvaging the WT corporation.

    Jst2laws

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Farkel.

    I read over your two post several times and I'm happy to say I agree with you completely. Your summary of the issues was, as usual, superb. It should be printed in the Insight Into the JW View of the Scriptures. While this is good for all to review the issues, you and I need to figure out exactly on which issues we disagree.

    I assert therefore that none of the final remaining "core values" of Jehovah's Witnesses are the least bit important in the big picture, even excusing them for their past excesses and failures.
    Fark, I'm not "excusing them for their past excesses and failures" There IS no excuse. Excuse or not, can we say each and every one of them is knowingly doing wrong to the great harm of others?

    John Booth was a church mouse who had a long history of "following'. George Gangas was just a 'good ol boy' who happened to be of Greek background, which opened doors. Milton Henchel was always kind and meek at Bethel but what happened in later years makes me doubt my own arguments on this thread. Dan Sydlik played base ball with the 'factory boys' but when I had need for some compassionate, reasonable support he nearly drove me to suicide. Yet, if I would have stayed there long enough I'm afraid I could have become just like them! I was duped the whole time I was there. At what point does the duped become the duper if no one really knows what is going on? I guess the question is DO THEY ALL KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON?

    Fark, don't forget I do not disagree with your last two posts on this subject. Maybe all the Gb members are evil. If anyone human should be held accountable it should be those at the top. But when those at the top believe those who preceded them at the top really spoke for God, and realize they are only there because they went along with these 'leaders', can we imagine how brave Ray Franz was to speak up and suggest the big boys before him were wrong? At some point the cowardice of these men must be judged as "evil" but I'm not making such a judgment.

    Jst2laws

  • COMF
    COMF

    "Everybody's just doing their job. And now Teresa Perrone is dead. Who do I see about that?"

    - Paul Newman, in "Absence of Malice".

    Is there absence of malice in the GB's lies?

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Comf,

    Well said. One of my favorite movies and a great line.

    "Who do I see about that?"

    I don't know!

    Chilling!

    Jst2laws

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    Hi Jst2laws,

    I once told the most famous JW "apostate" that for about 4 weeks I thought he was the most important person in the world until I realized his importance was only in connection with the WTS which is nothing but a fraud. His response was that he has had bigger disappointments in his life than my disillusion.
    Your observation is correct, and so was the observation of the "most famous JW apostate", if JWs have no special relationship with God.

    When we say someone is evil, we are making a "declaration" of a fact. We have "declared" him evil in the sight of God and man. This implies direct "accountability" to God for his actions. However, by making the person "accountable" to God, we have given him or attributed to him, an implied "relationship" with God. We are saying he have been given a "Law" from God (that he has transgressed), which then implies a "Covenant-Relationship" with God. A fact most on this discussion board cannot find acceptable.

    Has the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses been given a "Law" from God? Are they a part of a Christian "Law" Covenant with God?

    Its only when we can answer all such questions, and firmly resolve all such issues in our minds, that we can say with any real conviction that they are truly "evil" or not before God.

    If we are speaking Biblically, evil has to be defined within the confines of what God's Word defines as evil. And God only defines that which is truly evil as being in opposition to Him directly, thus in opposition to his "Law" or "Covenant". Instead of referring to the act or person as evil, God's Word classifies it as being "sin" or a "transgression" against God's established Law. It becomes a personal encroachment against His established boundaries. And if the "transgression" or act is deliberate or practiced, with no signs of "repentance" for carrying out the deliberate act or practice of sin, then the person and/or persons are classified as "evil" by God.

    The Bible shows "Sin" cannot be charged to someone that has never been given a direct "Law", commandment, or established boundary by God. God must first draw the line, inform one of the line's existence and what it means to "cross" that particular line, and must express to the person in the most emphatic terms the lasting effects of "transgressing" that boundary, before genuine "guilt" is charged to the offender.

    Paul described the situation we speak of this way by saying,

    "In reality the Law produces wrath, but where THERE IS NO LAW, neither is there any transgression." (Romans 4:15 NWT)

    A people without a God-given "Law", though technically sinning, have not been "charged" with sin, or of having "transgressed" God in any way. God does not consider this conduct "any transgression" against Him.

    Again Paul said,

    "For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when THERE IS NO LAW." (Romans 5:13 NWT)

    Even though the "sin" is present, the "sin" is not charged against the person or persons involved, if there is no "Law" present.

    So Paul could say,

    "...Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law..." (Romans 7:7 NWT)

    And this,

    "...by Law is the accurate knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20 NWT)

    So the vital connection is with the "Law" of God itself. With the giving of a "Law", comes accountability with God.

    So when the "Law" is given, and is transgressed, then the "wrath" of God naturally comes. As Paul said,

    "In reality the Law PRODUCES [God's] wrath..." (Romans 4:15 NWT)

    So, in the strictest sense, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses CANNOT be found guilty before God, without establishing FIRST whether the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have actually been given a "Law" from God or not.

    Have they been given a Christian "Law" from God? Has a Covenant-Relationship with God, been truly established?

    If we can answer in the affirmative to those vital questions, then, and only then can we "charge" the Governing Body of JWs with "sin" and "transgression" before God, and thus label them as "evil". Thereby making God liable to take any required "action" of recompense against them He deems necessary in compliance with His Law.

    Simply point, as the "most famous JW apostate" taught, if Jehovah's Witnesses are just another group of people with no particular relationship with God, then they have no special "accountability" with Him either. And oh how right he was! Because "blame" and "guilt" implies "accountability". And "accountability" implies "relationship". This is an unavoidable conclusion that the "most famous JW apostate" saw in his study of the Scriptures.

    And we do well to heed his astute advice in this matter, if we are persuaded in our own minds and hearts that they simply do NOT have a covenant-relationship with God.

    So the question of whether the Governing Body is evil or not, is proven less than moot, having no particular significance at all, if we do not first address the question of whether a "Law Covenant" from God has been granted to JWs.

    If we say no, then the Governing Body of JWs simply have no special standing with God at all. And no particular "guilt" before Him either. Then, we must confess their past "works" are meaningless, and perhaps even their pitiful existence.

    And if that is the case, then we are all just wasting our valuable time, thinking about JWs and their leadership, talking about the G.B. and discussing their every disturbing move. Even their hypocritical 10-year secret liason with the UN does not mean so much. We are not even surprised by their actions, and so on. We simply don't concern ourselves with them any more, just as countless thousands of ex-JWs do everyday when they leave the organization. (For example, my father put in 50 years with the JW organization, found out they were wrong, left and never even looked back. He got on with his life, right up until his death. Had a happy retirement and was a happy man all the way. He said he didn't regret his 50 years in, his service was given to God and not man. He figured God would take into account his "sincerity" with any mistakes made being a part of the organization.)

    If "accountability" is not there, then there is no real need for us to keep up with the "latest" on JWs or constantly occupying ourselves with what "they" are doing and what "they" wrote in their "rag" magazines of late. That's if the G.B. of JWs are under no "Law" of God or have no Covenant-relationship with God to start with. We are wasting our time calling them meaningless names, like "evil slave" and "man of lawlessness" and so on when God Almighty has "no beef" with them in particular. No more so, than the other "Osama bin ladens" of the world, anyway. We have to admit the truth, that those Bible descriptions we gleefully gave to the "clergy of christendom", simply don't fit them, but fits someone else undetermined at present (or maybe nobody at all).

    The Governing Body's religion becomes just like any other religion and the corruption each church organization faces, daily. Admittedly we see no ex-Baptist discussion boards, ex-Catholic discussion boards, ex-Methodist discussion boards, at least that I'm aware of. That's because wrongdoing is so rampant there, and has been for so many years, its just taken as "commonplace happenings" among the people who frequent and support these organizations.

    We are faced with this thought, is this the reality?

    This is what the "most famous JW apostate" thinks.

    Given that premise, we are forced to adopt the attitude that the G.B. (and all JWs) are simply a small bunch of "nobodys" in whom nobody hardly on the face of the earth cares about at all nor wants to know anything about. There are roughly 6 billion people in the world. But only 6 million JWs worldwide. That breaks down to 1 JW for every 999 people on the planet. Which means in reality, 99.9% of the world's population is not the least bit concerned. They have bigger problems to deal with, and "bigger fish to fry".

    However, on the other hand, if we say that Jehovah's Witnesses have been given a "Law" from God, (and there are those that believe this, I being one of them), then we must insist that they are especially "accountable" to that Law, from God's point of view. We must say, God is now obligated to do something about their "transgressions" against His "Law". We confidently say, we know they have incurred "God's wrath", and will be "punished" by God accordingly. But surely not because they have attained to "righteousness" in any way. No, no more than ancient "Israel" did, who must live with the dubious distinction of having "disowned" and murdered, the "Chief Agent of life", Jesus. (Acts 3:14, 15 NWT) So JWs have attained no "righteousness" at all. But God gets involved primarily because of whats mentioned in Ezekiel 36:20-22 [see NIV], of which I think addresses the most important overlooked factor in this whole drama. The verse in the Bible where God's showed what was of the utmost importance to Him when "transgression" against His "Law" was involved,

    "I had CONCERN FOR MY HOLY NAME...". (Ezekiel 36:21 NIV)

    bjc

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