Is The Governing Body EVIL?

by jst2laws 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • sleepy

    These are just some ideas of mine, I not saying they are true just things to consider.

    Maybe one day the idea of people being evil will be relegated to the dustbin as an explanation of why people do "bad" things.
    Just like God for an explanation of why the universe exists or "its all in the head" for why people suffer from strange illness.
    Of course you can label peoples actions as having evil or bad effects.
    Also we all do things we feel we shouldn't have done , and could have stopped ourselves , but could we?
    Can we say that a person is Evil? What does this mean?
    Are animals that eat their offspring Evil? Well I would say no.
    Human obviously are different to other animals, we have a mind to think and don't rely on instinct. Or do we?
    How do we know when we are really making a choice?
    Maybe we cant make choices like we think we do.

    A lot of recent research points to damage and abnormalities in Brain structure as the cause of many of mankind's quirks and strange actions.
    Stimulation to the frontal lobes can cause euphoria and religious convictions in many people. Damage to certain areas can cause loss of emotion. Some people feel no pain.
    The brain is only just opening up to research. We may find that or personalities and habits are largely caused by our varying brain structures.
    Also the fact that just giving your bodies different chemicals can drastically alter how you act how you feel and what you do, gives reason to question how much of what we do we actually had independent control over. Just drink some alcohol and see what it does.There are lots of different chemicals used by our bodies to control us.To much or too little of some can have big effects on your personality.

    This does not rule out the idea of free will, or accountability but does have a bearing on whether certain people are evil , i.e. .chose to do bad instead of good, or whether these people think in a different way due to slightly different brain structure and chemical make up.

    If the governing body is evil do they know it?
    If they don't this raises other questions. How do we know when we are doing evil things? If they are Evil men and know it then why do they do it? Are the gains really worth it? What kind of satisfaction can a Governing body member really get from doing what he does? Is it really worth the restricted life they have to lead.

  • jst2laws

    Dear Dungbeetle,

    This discussion seems to be stirring a lot of emotion. I should have anticipated that. Please remember I am not defending these men or justifying their actions.

    jst2laws, Ray Franz feelings toward HIS Governing Body are irrelevant, since HIS was 1983 and YOUR comment is directed at today's
    I believe they are accountable even if they are ‘followers of followers’.
    As to evil, please see my concession to AlanF above.

    The rest of your post seemed to be personal and emotional. I fear I have resurrected ill feelings, for which I apologize. Lets relax and stay friends.


  • Farkel


    : Nice to hear from you. You know a year ago I would not even address your responses to my threads because you intimidated me. Now I view you as a friend with no fear. So forgive me for differing with you.

    I was always your friend. You just didn't realize it at first!

    :: Yes. The GB knew for years that alternative military service could not be supported in scripture, yet they allowed countless thousands of young men to be imprisoned because they were afraid of repurcussions.

    : I agree. They allowed this to happen for years of needless harm. Yes, they were afraid. But of what? The men I knew in the 60’s and 70’s were afraid of changing things they did not understand. They believed in Fredie’s inspiration and just followed.

    Right, but as has already been pointed out, THAT was the 60's and 70's and this is 30-40 years later. This is an entire generation later, and as Alan has pointed out it, has been twenty-two years (since about 1980) since the GD became intractable hardliners.

    : They were in a position to change things in the last 20 years but being followers they, like most of us, dared not change the “truth”.

    Once again, it has already been pointed out that in the last 20 years they have NOT been followers. Who could they possibly be "following?" Fred Franz was dead during that period and the GB were answerable to no one but themselves. When he became chancellor, was Hitler still a "follower?" When you've reached the pinnacle of power, can you still pass the buck? When you not only claim to directly speak for God, but claim to be the only few who speak for God, can you still pass the buck for causing untold harm on people you KNOW to be wrong. (We know they know they were wrong because they've stopped SOME of their evil practices, yet they knowlingly continue to promote other evil practices.)

    :: The same is true today of the blood issue. They know their stance is wrong. Why do you think they've slowly kept softening their position over the years? And people still die because they knowingly harm others for "something they can get out of it": being protected from lawsuits, and not having to admit they were wrong.

    :I suspect you are right, “they know their stance is wrong”. This is one of their biggest pickles that probably plaques the GB. But remember these boys did not formulate this policy, they inherited it.

    So what? They inherited it thirty years ago. They've had over twenty years without Fred Franz's objections to scrap it. How freaking long do they need to do right by it, anyway. They claim to speak for God.

    : And remember they are probably afraid to change anything they do not understand.

    I do not agree. Several of us personally know men who have respectfully presented rock-solid scriptural arguments to the GB that conclusively prove their blood ban does not apply to transfusions. Given that, how can you possibly say they "do not understand" it is wrong, then.

    Look, if it is true that the GB are now a bunch of senile blithering idiots drooling all over themselves and soiling their pants, then I would say, "yes, they are blithering idiots and probably do not even know what year it is." But they were not that way twenty years ago when Fred Franz died.

    : So now you have a GB composed mostly of men who can no long tie their own shoes or feed themselves who follow the lead of the legal dept.

    See my previous comment.

    : The legal dept I suspect believes they are rectifying divine teachings with imminent litigation, seeking ‘theocratic strategy’ that will ‘vindicate Jehovah’s name’. It is BS and a tragedy.

    I agree with the BS and tragedy part, but I'm not so sure about your opinion of the legal department. From what I've seen, these men are not the least bit interested in religious doctrine or doing what is right. These men are only interested in protecting the society's position and image. That's why they have duel policy on reporting accusations of molestation to authorities: if the law requires it, do it. If not, don't.

    : But is it truly of evil intent?

    I think you are fretting too much over hair-splitting with the definition of "evil." Let me ask you this: if the word "evil" did not exist in the human lexicon, would the actions and policies of the GB be any less worse?

    : I know many if not most of these guys really believe they are doing what is right. Sad, isn’t it!

    It's not only sad, it's pathetic.
    ::They are a bunch of self-worshiping, self-glorifing, self-promoting evil men.

    : If your right, Farkel, that would make them “evil”.

    What do you mean IF I'm right? Pick up just about any copy of the society's literature and count the number of self-glorifying references. The GB has placed themselves DIRECTLY in between Christ and men. Oh yeah, they say it is the FDS or anointed, but the FDS or other anointed have NO say in that doctrine.

    : It is hard to be liberal here, but I’m trying not to be judgmental. I’m inclined to believe most of the individual members of the GB are not smart enough to be so cunning. Jst my opinion.

    Wicked or evil and "smart" are mutually exclusive.

    : Farkel, you are way ahead in this process than I, so you may be right. But I am not defending these guys. What they are doing is wrong. As to my crisis of conscience, I thought I was past that phase. If I am still in my “own crisis of conscience” how do I emerge from this?

    I'm sorry, but I cannot answer that for you. We each have to emerge from it in our own way. But I know you are doing the right thing by asking the kinds of questions you are asking.

    : I was quoting Ray Franz as to “victims of victims”. Do you feel he too is still in his “Crisis of Conscience”?

    Others have already made some good observations about that in this thread. I would only agree with Ray if he was referring to all the WTS hierarchy UP TO the GB. But with them, and without Freddie's meddling, the buck DOES stop with them. THEY and ONLY they are the ones who claim to exclusively speak for God. And they and only they can perpetuate evil deeds or stop them. People under them are basically powerless and are forced to go along with whatever they say, or face an incredibly harsh punishment.

    : I have only raised the issue of motivation.

    They have decades of evidence stacked against them and they've had decades of evidence presented to them to change. Look what they did do Carl Jonnson. He proved without any doubt that they were wrong about 607 BC. Normally, that error would just be an error of an ancient date calculation. But in this case, that date is critical to every ounce of power they wield and their claim to spiritual appointment. They did not use their vast resources to try to rebut Carl. They did not change. They DFd Carl.

    : Can we judge these without judging ourselves at least to some degree.

    What do you mean by that?

    : Having known a generation of these old men I have stated my perspective. The question remains in my mind, are they evil or high level followers?

    As I've already stated, their evil deeds remain the same, whatever term is attached to them.


  • jst2laws

    I feel a little like a pork sausage at a Jewish picnic. But the posts have been stimulating and educational, not only for myself but I hope for JW lurkers.

    I have to accept the reality that I cannot respond to every post but would like to thank everyone for their contribution to the discussion.

    Path and Scully, You both made excellent points.
    Sleepy, quite a set of questions. Much to think about.


    You have probably noticed my concession to Alan concerning the changes that took place in the GB. As you say it has “been twenty-two years (since about 1980) since the GD became intractable hardliners”.

    Most of what you say I agree with. You said:

    I would only agree with Ray if he was referring to all the WTS hierarchy UP TO the GB. But with them, and without Freddie's meddling, the buck DOES stop with them.
    While the “buck” stops with them I suspect these guys are still followers. Not to back up and sound as if to excuse them, they seem to believe their own propaganda that what was printed in the past was from God. To change what is in print must be scary to men who are surely aware of their own ineptitude. For that reason I believe that most changes come from either pressure from Legal or pressure from us “apostates”. An example of the later is the May 1 wt reversal on “naos”, where the great crowd are serving. Amazingly it took almost 20 years as you say/

    Enjoyed the discussion, Fark.


  • Larsguy

    Just for the Biblical RECORD regarding the "evil slave".....

    The Bible does state that there would be a specific organizsation, a temple organizationt that would be "in its right condition" after 2300 evenings and mornings. That is an evening and morning is a half day so after 1150 years a final period of 1260 years. If you follow the 70-weeks pattern you will know that 4 periods of 490 years (1960) ends in 1996 counting from 36CE. If we presume the 1260 years ends at that time as well, then we can calculate that the temple organization should have appeared about 110 years prior to 1996, that is, around 1886 A.D. Why?

    Because 1260 minus 1150 leaves 110 years. And if the temple does not come to it's right condition until after 1150 years then one would presume it would be in it's right condition for the last 110 years of the 1260-year period. Of note, the first "Studies in the Scriptures" which became the foundation for the Bible Students to begin a new religion eventually becoming Jehovah's witnesses took place in 1886.

    OKAY! Having said that, if indeed, this organization which is supposed to preach the "good news" worldwide, thus becoming an international religion during the last days is fulfilled by Jehovah's witnesses, then this same organizastion is prophesied to produce from its leaders the apostate "evil slave" and "antichrist." That being the case, that would mean the Governing Body per the Bible is considered apostate and thus part of the "anti-Christ" and so it's all over for them. That's because when Christ returns, upon finding this slave not being faithful or discrete but presuming "my master is delaying" (which is the case), and begin beating up on it's fellow slaves, which it does by disfellowshipping and labeling "apostates" anybody who disagrees with anything they say, right or wrong, then they would be thrown outside into spiritual darkness and rejected by Jehovah. Furthermore, being labelled the "false prophet", they will meet a fiery death in the lake of fire "while still alive" at the same time Christendom is destroyed (the 666-Beast; the lamb-dragon beast coming out of the "earth" represents the leaders of the temple (God's) organization).

    So, if you believe that the witnesses are significantly the prophesied "temple" organization then the Governing Body would definitely have to become apostate and become the "evil slave" and will be rejected in the end as well as all those not noticing they have been rejected by God and keep following them blindly, paying no attention to truth or scripture.

    So the Bible calls them an "EVIL" slave...

    You decide what you want, but "interpretation belongs to God."


  • winsome

    Hello Jst2laws:

    I believe this "letter" written in response to a request for "reinstatement" (of an innocent brother) to the WTS organization, is the ultimate definitive answer to your most intriguing question.


  • jst2laws


    Excellent selection. Now I'm wondering where is Lonewolf. That was a masterpiece.

    As to what it proves regarding the original issues I'm not sure. The men I knew in the 60's and 70's were mostly incompetent. But over the years enough has been presented to them, such as the reasoning of lonewolf, that I'm not sure incompetence combined with blind loyalty to what they believed can excuse them.

    Who can tell. I really believe they started out in positions of authority as 'followers' but as has been presented on this thread, they had ample opportunity to learn and take a stand. Its clear they did not. If they had functioning brain cells when they individually chose to ignore the facts and continue propaganda the "lie" is between themselves and God. If they are exempt of responsibility for the evil they have caused then most of us here should be seated next to God.

    I don't mind admitting I am growing spiritual in front of many. I posed the question as 'devil's advocate' or 'angel's advocate', whatever!

    But I still believe good or evil is something we each merit as individuals rather than our association. But then, our choice of association and choice to remove ourselves from evil association says something about ourselves too! I hope that is why most of us are here rather than there.

    Thanks for your response,


  • winsome


    I came across a couple of bible passages that I thought might help to answer your question. Essentially, I think these passages of scripture will show leadership of the people, is to be held most responsible in God's sight for what it does. Also, these verses show leadership too, can be classified to God as "evil" or good, depending upon the "fruitage" that is bore from its labors. And I think thats the question you are really striving to answer. Here is the Bible passage.

    Jesus said at Matthew 12:33-35,

    "Either you people make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten; for by its fruit the tree is known. Offspring of vipers, how can you speak good things, when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things."

    Jesus was talking to the pharisees and religious leaders. In this case, Jesus proclaimed the pharisees and other religious leaders as officially evil (or wicked) because of the following reason. They had the capacity and ability as leaders, to either "make the tree" good or bad, whatever they wanted. It was their prerogative in God's eyes to make the tree "fine", or make it a "rotten" tree. As leaders, we know they chose the latter. But it was their choice, as Jesus put it.

    And that's the point we after.

    So, I think in attempting to answer your question it would be safe to say, the real weight of responsibility then falls upon the leadership, since only they have the real capacity for change and reform within the organization. And for these reasons, they must be held most accountable to God for the guidance they give to the people. (Hebrews 13:17)

    Further, Jesus showed that the masses of people that unwittingly followed the religious leaders of his day, even though they did not become his disciples, would kindly receive of God's mercy and get a resurrection to life within God's Kingdom. (Matt. 12:41, 42)

    Whereas Jesus showed, the religious leaders of his time would in contrast, receive the heavier "judgment of Gehenna" for misleading the people. (Matt. 23:15, 23)

    Needless to say, Jesus viewed the religious leaders of his day as being truly evil or wicked, based up the "fruitage" the nation produced. The people themselves. What kind of disciples did they turn out to be, in God's eyes, good fruit or worthless fruit. This simple test shows whether the leadership is good or evil to God. As Jesus said, " its fruits, the tree is known". (Matt. 12:33)

    The example of the "vineyard" that Jesus spoke of also reveals this.

    "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those cultivators?" They said to him: "Because they are evil, he will bring an evil destruction upon them and will let out the vineyard to other cultivators, who will render him the fruits when they become due." (Matthew 21:40, 41)

    Almighty God was the vineyard "owner". The religious leaders of Jesus' day were the "cultivators" most responsible for what the "vineyard" produced as fruit. When Jesus asked them what should be the proper judgment for their evil mismanagement, they gave the appropriate answer. And out of their own mouths, the religious leaders themselves said the leadership must "answer" to God, for the pitiful condition of the "vineyard". This shows they fully understood the situation and the fierce judgment they faced for being leaders of the people.

    I think this above example shows that God ultimately holds leadership most accountable. And it also shows the religious leaders fully understood their great accountability to God as spiritual "cultivators" within His "vineyard". Interestingly, they on their own surmised the "cultivators" in Jesus' illustration were plainly "evil" and should receive an "evil destruction" upon themselves, plus have the "vineyard" responsibilities stripped from them. That's how they judged the matter. And God and Jesus agreed. (Matthew 21:40-43)

    Similarly, I think the JWs are in the same type of situation today, following the Governing Body. Everyone knows the rank and file JWs are strictly obedient to the teachings and directives of the Governing Body. They don't even question the G.B. But they do exactly what they are told. They have complete faith in the organization, as one would put faith in God Himself. The "organization" can do no wrong to them or lasting harm (evil). They were taught this by their leadership. The JW "organization" is always right, even when they are wrong. This is by definition, "harmful" or evil in itself.

    This type of blind obedience on the part of the people I think, inevitably opens the door for the same rule and judgment that applied for the religious leaders of Jesus' day, to now apply to the Governing Body.

    Rather than put a stop to this folly among the people, the Governing Body of JWs perpetrates the situation. They encourage the people to continue in this course. Tell them in their publications and speeches, they are doing the right thing and to continue this "organization" worship. They even "reward" this kind of behavior, by promoting organization-worshiping people to higher positions of prominence. By granting special "privileges", being chosen to be on certain special "committees" for judging matters and handling special parts on assembly programs and such, when they display great loyalty and obedience to "man", and his visible idol, the "organization". One must "bow down" to this man-made idol, the organization, in order to make "progress" within it.

    And when one does not show sufficient loyalty and obedience to the "organization" and are somehow dissuaded away from this behavior, they are invariably targeted, said to be in need of counseling, and singled out for "questioning". They are scolded, admonished to repentance, which if not heeded, leads to lose of privileges. Which now leads to being despised by former friends as "bad association" and finally demoted, or punished in some way for being "defiant" and having the "spirit of rebellion" toward the organization. In short, he is pushed right out of the organization as being "not wanted" anymore. Because he does not wish to "bow down" and show the proper respect to the man-made idol, the "organization".

    We know, this circumstance is wholly created by the Governing Body, or leadership. And it can only change if leadership changes it. It is the exclusive prerogative of the Governing Body to make such conditions stay, or go away. So, they make a conscience "choice" or decision, to "make the tree" or organization, what it is before God, an "idol".

    Jesus said, they "make the tree" what it is. So then, if the "tree" is "rotten", then they as leaders are "evil" and deserve an "evil destruction" upon themselves. Also the responsibility to guide and "cultivate" their "vineyard" followers should be rightfully stripped from them too, as even the pharisees themselves admitted. (Matt. 21:43)

    So if we followed Bible-criteria, I think the Governing Body should receive the "heavier judgment" from God as being truly evil. (James 3:1) We can say they are evil, based upon the "fruitage" they produce as leaders. Namely, the type of people produced. A crop of pathetic WT "organization" worshipers, or worshipers of men instead of worshipers of God.


  • jst2laws

    Hello again Winsome,

    Thanks for the research.

    I think the Governing Body should receive the "heavier judgment" from God as being truly evil. (James 3:1) We can say they are evil, based upon the "fruitage" they produce as leaders. Namely, the type of people produced. A crop of pathetic WT "organization" worshipers, or worshipers of men instead of worshipers of God.
    I like the way you express this. Your reasoning has validity as well. I was unable to find the translation you used to render Matt 12:33-34 but Vs 34 'you snakes' and the context of the chapter seem to allow for the rendering 'you people make the tree ' fine or rotten. If this is true your comparison of the 'tree' to an Organization and its leaders responsibility seems reasonable.

    My only reservation is vs. 35 of Mat 12:

    You snakes--how can you say good things when you are evil? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good person brings good things out of his treasure of good things; a bad person brings bad things out of his treasure of bad things.

    36 "You can be sure that on the Judgment Day everyone will have to give account of every useless word he has ever spoken. 37 Your words will be used to judge you--to declare you either innocent or guilty."
    TEV Matt 12:34-37

    While the chapter condemns the religious leaders as a group, vs. 35 speaks individually of "a good person" and a "bad person". Then vs. 36 says: "on the Judgment Day everyone will have to give account".
    I'm not going to be dogmatic about this but it appears we can condemn as evil a "tree" or organization and its fruitage as well as the " blind guides" and "white washed graves" full of dead men's bones. But judgment is ultimately on an individual bases, "person" by "person".
    If that is true of the individuals responsible for the 'tree' or 'organization' that killed Jesus, then what of the present organizations(plural) that claim to have divine authority.

    I'm not going to carry that thought any further because I realize we are in an environment of recovering victims and it may be best to not open old wounds or appear to excuse the evil we have suffered.

    Thanks again for your thought. If you would like, email me at [email protected]


  • siegswife

    Hi Just2laws! I think the answer to your question depends on whether or not you think they fit the following description given by Jesus:

    Matthew 24:48,49 But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, 'My master is delaying,' and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where his weeping and gnashing of teeth will be.

    Personally, I think they fit the MO of an 'evil slave' to a tee.

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