How should I respond to JW relative?

by Resistance is Futile 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Resistance is Futile
    Resistance is Futile

    So I've been talking to one of my JW relatives lately, she's a young adult, born-in.

    I've never openly said I don't believe in the Governing Body, and I've been asking her questions in order to get her thinking.

    So I asked her if she believed Watchtower publications were inspired and equivalent to the Bible. She didn't really answer my question; it's amazing how good they are at that. Speaking of Watchtower articles she made this spectacular claim:

    "The brothers that are assigned to make the publications do NOT put any of their own words in them. They pray for Jehovah's holy spirit and they say every word in accord to what we have in the scriptures."

    I'm not quite sure what would be the best response. I'm thinking of playing dumb by claiming I don't understand what she means. That way she gets to dig herself into a deeper hole in trying to explain it further.

    By the way, exactly what is the current Watchtower "truth" on this subject? Are the articles considered to be inspired? According to the Governing Body, are members of the Great Crowd (the writing staff), able to channel holy spirit?

    What respectful, thought-provoking question should I ask her about this issue?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Dumb is good. Encourage her to dig her own hole and then ask her to dig her way out of it.

    You can provide her with failed WT farticles, but don't express your own opinion...... ever.....

    Try to only use articles that she has access to. Assuming she has a WT CD you could ask her to type 'shortly within our twentieth century' into the search box and comment on the only article that the search finds. Do not comment yourself

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Always project the image that you want to be a true believer. If they suspect you are an APOSTATE they will run away.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/directed-by-holy-spirit.php goes through some of their somewhat convoluted reasoning on this.

    They do not claim the Watchtower is inspired, but you still need to believe everything in it as if it is inspired.

    "The Governing Body consists of a group of anointed Christian men These preside over the worldwide activities of Jehovah's Witnesses. They are not inspired by God and hence are not infallible, but they rely on God's infallible Word as the highest authority on earth." Jehovah's Witnesses - Unitedly Doing God's Will Worldwide p.26

    "The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers." Awake! 1993 Mar 22 p.4

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    The correct response is : Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    That might not help though.

    "The brothers that are assigned to make the publications do NOT put any of their own words in them. They pray for Jehovah's holy spirit and they say every word in accord to what we have in the scriptures."

    I'd ask: 'Then if Jehovah(TM) gives the information to the writers, what is the reason for 'new light(TM)'?'

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    Why has Jehovah, via the direction of His Holy Spirit, had His Witnesses, under the direction of the "spirit directed" F&DS, deliver the warning message about Armageddon to occur in THIS GENERATION of 1914, (numerous examples of F&DS setting dates), and yet it has never come?

    In what Biblical example did Jehovah ever have his Servant(s) deliver a message of pending Divine destruction and it did not come true?

    HINT: Jonah.

    WHY: Jehovah changed his mind about destroying Nineveh.

    Does the example of Jonah demonstrate to us that Jehovah has changed his mind about bringing and end to the wicked people of this world?

    IF NOT, then what other Biblical explanation is there for the failure of His warning message to come true?

    What does the Bible say about anyone claiming to speak in the name of Jehovah whose message does not prove to be true? Does the warning at Deut 18:20-22 apply?

    IF NOT, then what scriptural example does explain it?

    Doc

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    "The brothers that are assigned to make the publications do NOT put any of their own words in them. They pray for Jehovah's holy spirit and they say every word in accord to what we have in the scriptures."

    I think I would pursue this further and ask "Is that a yes or a no ?" If it is Jehovah's words then we can be sure that every word will be true. If it is the result of men's study and their own judgement, then it is only as good as human judgement ......Try and get her off the fence and see the folly of claiming it both ways.

    Of course the Watchtower itself has commented thus: I have found expansion on the quote by JWFacts

    Awake '93 3/22 p 4

    "Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425) “Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible.” (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157) “The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.” (August 15, 1950, page 263) “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”—February 15, 1981, page 19."

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    In addition to what Blues Brother says, the WBT$ likes to say they're not inspired then in a bid to have it both ways we have....

    Nothing is interpreted but the interpretation comes from God and is then published.
    (WT 1943 July 1 pp. 202-203)

    Angels deliver what is published.
    (PREPARATION 1933 pp. 36-37, 64)

    THE WATCHTOWER publishes "no man's opinion".
    (WT 1931 November 1 p. 327; 1936 March 15 p. 85)

    "To it (this organization) alone...the Bible is not a sealed book." The WTS is "the only organization on earth that understands the 'deep things of God.' "
    (WT 1973 July 1 p. 402)

    The leaders are "spirit directed" (WT 1988 March 1 p. 10)

    and "God's channel."
    (WT 1969 January 15 p. 51; 1960 July 15 pp. 439, 442)

    "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the 'slave' as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision."
    (WT 1957 June 15 p. 370)

    C. T. Russell founder of the WTS, called himself "God's mouthpiece" (WT 1906 July 15 p. 229); claimed that compared to reading his books Bible reading is "a waste of time" (WT 1910 September 15 p. 298)

    , and that his books "harmonize...every statement in the Bible."
    (DIVINE PLAN OF THE AGES 1886 p. 348)

    God uses and directs the WTS.
    (VINDICATION Book 1 1931 p. 77)

    "The 'slave' class has served as God's sole collective channel for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth. Just as the early Christian congregation collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth, so in our time."
    (WT 1960 July 15 p. 439)

    "As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All of this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it." (WT 1964 June 15 p. 365)

    "Therefore, in submitting to Jehovah's theocratic organization, we must be in full and complete agreement with every feature of its apostolic procedure and requirements."
    (WT 1967 October 1 p. 593)

    "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." (Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370)

    Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book. Many persons of the world are very intelligent, capable of understanding complex matters. They can read the Holy Scriptures, but they cannot understand their deep meaning.""( Watchtower 1973 Jul 1 p.402)

    The point is that Christians have implicit trust in their heavenly Father; they do not question what he tells them through his written Word and organization." (Watchtower 1974 Jul 15 p.441)

    "We must serve Jehovah in truth, as revealed in his Word and made clear in the publications of "the faithful and discreet slave." Watchtower 1996 May 15 p.18

    So. Are they inspired or not....even those stupid flickers don't know!

  • FuzzyPaul
    FuzzyPaul

    Since age 3 I was taught the WatchTower was the TRUTH and that we were IN THE TRUTH. For thirty years I worked and studied to try to make it plain to myself so I could teach others. We were taught NOT to make inquiries of special literature used by the WT editors (Various writers and editors just write what they are told) which they used as source material, some more objectively than others. Since they quote from, say, The Catholic Encyclopedia etc. then "lets go to the library and look stuff up." I was told "The FD&S has provided all we need", "Don't waste your time." - All such directives are to be considered commands. It wasn't the fear of God that was appealed to in Me (others say what I am about to) it was the fear of the Demons. It was taught that Demons inhabit the Churches and even reading their literature is an "invitation for the Demons" to influence, to attack us, or even that "one would be brought under the control of the Demons."

    That means Demon Possession.

    I have mocked that as - believing that Demons would "jump out of the page and into one's brain." If you are reading John F. MacArthur, who sounds like a co-editor of the WT, then one could be led to believe that hate is God-ordained. The WT promotes hatred, too many ways to describe, but look up what happened circa 1979 when Top editors, contributors, lead men in other countries and a GB member discovered and wanted factual data published and taught about the 1914 date being WRONG. Jerusalem was destroyed, in the final attack of several in 586 B.C.E. We read in the official WT pubs that they were "pure hatred" and that we were to hate them (with righteous hatred). They had facts, the kind of indisputable facts an experienced researcher could collect and prepare into a coherent thesis.

    OUCHY. 1914 is the foundation of WT teaching. WW1 in 1914, Jesus advent (return) which later was re-explained as invisibly present (para see-yah), the inspection of the Churches (no proof that happened in any especially unique way) and finally the choosing Of The Most Glorious WTBTS and The IBSA in 1919. With Daniel's ... prophecies used to give dates. (which didn't add up as others have said here.) No objective proof of their choosing. No Shekinah light, no tongues -as if of fire, no glowing face halos, no miracles = like all the prophets had. Those sorts of evidences were taught to be of the Devil in our modern age. "Angel of light" deceptions.

    What is the evidence the WT claims? "Truth." That they have the TRUTH, teach the TRUTH, are THE TRUTH, are in THE TRUTH.... And only absolutely perfect knowledge of that [Watchtower teaching] gets one saved. But during the 1980's we were told and reinforced NOT to use literature more than 5 (Five) years old. (Those old "Letters from Jehavah" would just confuse us with old light I supposed.) We are commanded - Not to do our own research, Not to take courses in Comparative Religion, Not not to use the Internet for research, except WT dot org, and now I've heard don't use the Internet. WHY not?

    We would get "confused", one would get "Demon possessed", one would "suffer spiritual ruin". We will get kiLLeD at Armagedin and the birds will eat us.

    Yup. I am not making this up, just presenting it in my own tones.

    All that WT learning " is too weak to save", the "invisible presence of Jesus" who they don't defend as doing anything with his Kingly power, the powerful Spirit Of God which they tell us only they have, or The Love Of God (toward Us) protects us. None of it is more powerful than words on a page or a demon.

    I think one must read entirely the 1st Letter of John. "4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world." Note the context, test the spirits, discern who are false-prophets, and who have the spirit of anti-Christ. (That the WT adds Songs to their official Song-Book and decreases references to Jesus, the Christ does not make them appear PRO-Christ.)

    The WT even claims that nothing in the Bible applies to us, It is addressed to the "Anointed". Just the 144,000 left-overs who were alive in 1914 and old enough to understand ... or just alive in 1914 ... or read about 1914 with enthusiasm ... or what, I don't know. Anyone born in 1914 is 99 years old. Psalm 90 makes 80 years old special, generations were considered to be 40 years, or 50. (52 years is more supportable.) I think the latest WT thought is to add 120 years to 1914 like Noah was told his time until the flood was limited to. Is that a "Generation?

    So. What now? Do we have nothing?

    The word of God says about HIS word in Isaiah 55

    6 Seek the Lord while He may be found,
    Call upon Him while He is near.
    7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
    And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
    Let him return to the Lord,
    And He will have mercy on him;
    And to our God,
    For He will abundantly pardon.

    8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
    Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
    9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    So are My ways higher than your ways,
    And My thoughts than your thoughts.

    10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
    And do not return there,
    But water the earth,
    And make it bring forth and bud,
    That it may give seed to the sower
    And bread to the eater,
    11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
    It shall not return to Me void,
    But it shall accomplish what I please,
    And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (All quotes NKJV)

    It shall prosper.

    IT, by itself, SHALL, without any ones help, PROSPER with absolute accomplishment.

    Only two things are explicitly stated as necessary to be saved. In the letter of Apostle Paul to The Roman believers, Chapter 10 we are told:

    9 (FIRST) that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and (SECONDLY) believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (THAT IS IT. WHAT CAN ADD TO THE BLOOD OF JESUS?) 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    "The same Lord is rich to all who call upon HIM" No distinction is made about the person. “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    Works can't earn salvation, studying literature can't save, putting on "the new personality", "practicing the Fruits of the Spirit" all of which are Watchtower directives taken out of Biblical context or are re-arranged, mis-translated thoughts sounding biblical. A fruit tree has no choice on what its fruit shall be. Therefore, one can't practice to have "the Fruitage of The Spirit" taught in Galatians 5. Even Faith is called a "Gift". Not a taken, are a practice, or acted out. Performing Works - Watchtower required type of works, doesn't produce or cause faith.

    What we are depends on having God's Spirit for ourselves, directly within us. If we could work for salvation then why did Jesus die to pay our penalty for our sins? If we must have works to be saved, where is the list of works explicitly stated? Wouldn't this become having faith in our own works? That our own works can and will save us? That we have the right list of works and do them correctly?

    The Faith that we get from God is in his sacrifice of his Son. The response from our spirit, being with God's Spirit is Love, charity. The specific text of Matthew 25:31 - 45, James 1:27 and 2:15,16 both describe CHARITY - feeding, housing, giving medical attention, providing food aid to other people without distinction. The Watchtower specifically calls charity "painting the deck on a sinking ship." And the WTBTS says they don't get involved in food aid as it makes "rice Christians." They actually mock the "only faith in Jesus can save" doctrine which is explicitly stated. Jesus fed thousands and said failure to feed others would get one condemned - (Mt 25). The WT commands NOT TO. Does anyone else see the contradiction of Jesus teachings and those of the Apostles?

    Watchtower teaching will set you up for condemnation not salvation.

    Luke 23 has this report, "39 Then one of the [two] criminals who were hanged [with Jesus] blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

    40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

    43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

    That evil-doer repented, called Jesus "Lord" and recognized Jesus authority to save him, AND must have BELIEVED that the Resurrection of Jesus was certain ( like Romans 10:9 says) before it happened (Hebrews 11:1).

    THAT IS IT, THAT IS ALL OF WHAT GETS US SAVED.

    There is no "road to salvation" Watchtower-ishly. The Watchtowers teachings lie about God's Goodness and desire to save everyone by Grace which means Charity and Charity is given freely. The WT contradicts the teachings on salvation so thoroughly and blasphemously they can't be teaching anything of "TRUTH" but devilish lies. The Devil knows the Scriptures, he undertstands Scripture as he can discern the prophecies about the Christ therein BUT twisted the application into contradiction. Worship of the devil, or God, involves who one gives "Exclusive Devotion" to.

    Who does the Watchtower demand exclusive devotion to? Themselves. Their ideology, teachings, elder's commands....

    "Test the spirits"

    Whew, that was a lot of words.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Way too complicated to drag out quotes from Watchtowers.

    Watchtower claims that it's writings are not inspired, but that the men taking the lead are "spirit-directed."

    Ask what the real difference is between "inspired" and "spirit-directed." While they have an answer, it's really weak. It basically allows them to say that they make mistakes. So stay with that. They make mistakes. They could be wrong about many things. How is that "spirit-directed."

    Compare cardinals voting on a majority basis to elect a new pope, showing how God must not direct every one of them, but simply a majority. Then ask if it is similar with changes on the Governing Body or setting policy.

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