Bobcat, give me your take on this

by QC 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • QC
    QC

    BCat, looks like Jesus is not Michael. I just shared this with new member "lost". If this is correct it's another big eye opener for the JW R&F. Misapplication of 1914 once again. So the "end" began in 33C.E. when Jesus was resurrected and installed as king.

    Between 32-33 C.E. before Jesus death Satan is cast out when Jesus sent his disciple on their first Christian ministry.

    Lu 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.
    18 "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
    19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.
    20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
    22 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

    Rev12:7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers
    9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called 'Devil,' and 'the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
    10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, 'Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Hi! Can I comment?

    I gave a #3 assignment in the KH awhile back. The subject was " Is Jesus Michael the Archangel?" I belive that I was waking up back then. There is no proof that Jesus and Michael are the same. I never answered the question in my talk.

    It seems you have to make some assertions to believe that Jesus is Michael. The WTBTS holds that in 1914 Jesus assumed power and cast out Satan. Once 1914 is gone, you can reason a different way. So how could Jesus be Michael if Jesus was on earth at the time that Michael cast Satan out of heaven? The WTBTS says that Jesus cannot be God because Jesus was on earth. So was Jesus praying to himself? He cannot be in two places at once! The same reasoning would apply in this situation.

    The problem is getting past 1914, so you must be somewhat awakened to get this, right?

  • QC
    QC

    But the "full end of the age" could begin in 1914, WWI & WWII, etc. ... culminatiing in Armaggeddon.

    YLT Mt 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, 'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

  • pixel
    pixel

    QC,

    I liked what you did putting those two verses together. Luke 10:17 and Revelation 12:7. In Luke Jesus talk about a "fall", "serpents" and "scorpions", in Revelation, it talks aout "serpents", a "fall" and other angels, could they be "scorpions"? "serpents" related?

    I think 1914 as the date of Satan fall to earth is out of the question. You arrive at 1914 through Daniel's big tree, which only applies to Nabo, not Jehovah's Kingdom. Plus, in Matthew 28:19,20 Jesus said that he received all power on earth and heaven right after resurrection.

  • QC
    QC

    @pixel

    Yes, here it is also,

    Ac 2:30 "God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne... 31 he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ.... 32 God has raised this Jesus to life.... 33 Exalted to the right hand of God...received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."'

  • *lost*
    *lost*

    QC - many thanks.

    SO MUCH to learn.

    kind regards

    lost

  • QC
    QC

    Hi Lost,

    Make sure you read this post. It answers one of your queries.

    Hi DD

  • wolfman85
    wolfman85

    About wars Jesus never said that wars would be a signal of the end. On the contrary, he warned us not to be deceived for these things.

    Matthew 24:4-6

    New International Version (NIV)

    4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

    The WT has done the opposite , took the War of 1914 as a sign of the end and deceived many and is still deceiving .

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Awesome point Wolfman!! I have thought that as well. Using world events to try any predict the end goes contrary to Christ's teaching.

  • QC
    QC

    @DD

    I disagree; WWI & WWII is monumental world instability, "nation against nation kingdom against kingdom." Truly beacon lights flashing, we are headed for something dire.

    And, simultaneously JW leadership is on the wrong side of this issue CHOOSING to practice “evil” deceptions and blasphemy of God's name.

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