Never said that Jesus had offspring , where the heck does that come from ? KNow that you don't agree but the general Christain view is that , as I am sure you know , the Genesis passage refers to Jesus death on the cross where HE finally overcame Satan . As I said you will never agree but why do you argue over points on which we agree like Jesus never saying that He came to replace the law . He said that He came to fulfill the law . I agree with you about that . Do you just wnat to argue for the sake of arguing ? Don't get it . You just sound so angry all the time , sorry if I have that wrong , never mean to upset anyone just to give my opinion .
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP 229 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Rattigan350
Stupid topic.
Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophecies because both were made for the purpose of demonstrating or modeling of what Christ was to do.
The law showed that those humans were imperfect and needed to be cleansed over and over.
The prophesies (are more than predicting the future) were given to tell who Jesus will be and what he will do and how he will die and what the kingdom is.
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Apognophos
This whole thread suffered from a failure of communication. mP was trying to say that the Bible is not God's Word, but just a collection of Jewish writings followed by claims from the early Christians that reinterpreted those writings to point to the Messiah. So when people think they're answering mP's question, they're actually missing the point and wasting their time because of the oblique way in which mP led the conversation.
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mP
Rattigan
Stupid topic.
Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophecies because both were made for the purpose of demonstrating or modeling of what Christ was to do.
The law showed that those humans were imperfect and needed to be cleansed over and over.
The prophesies (are more than predicting the future) were given to tell who Jesus will be and what he will do and how he will die and what the kingdom is.
mP:
Rather thatn state the obvious christian belief, try and show a scripture from moses (who wrote the law) that demands a perfect man will come and die and abolish this law. The simple answer is you cant because he in no way hints at a Jesus figure or equivalent.
You cannot fulfill a law you can only fulfill a prophecy. How exactly does one fulfill laws like thou shall not murder, thou shall celebrate the sabbath. If you were born a vegatable you would also not break any of moses laws.
Moses has no prophecies. There are no prophecies about a future messiah like Jesus anywhere in the OT. Jesus does not appear inthe OT. Just be honest, you can still believe in jesus but dont about telling lies that he fulfilled the law of Moses.
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mP
Apog:
This whole thread suffered from a failure of communication. mP was trying to say that the Bible is not God's Word, but just a collection of Jewish writings followed by claims from the early Christians that reinterpreted those writings to point to the Messiah. So when people think they're answering mP 's question, they're actually missing the point and wasting their time because of the oblique way in which mP led the conversation.
mP:
My point is Christians have invented an entire story about requiring Christ death for our sins and false attributed it to the OT.
This is not a question about whether the BIble is the word of God, its about people lying claiming something is present in the OT when its not. I dont think i mentioned that once topic once. Again you are dishonestly putting words in my mouth that i have never hinted in this particular thread.
Unless people make statements and when challenged cannot provide any response from the Bible. They will tell you christian beliefs but they cant actually show you from the BIble. My point of view isbasically the jews are right, Jesus is not predicted in the Bible and Christians have made the whole thing up.
The people responding should do some simpl reading and check what they say against the text that supposedly supports their belief.
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jhine
mp , what about the suffering servant in Isaiah , there are many passages which talk about a future event of of death and ressurection . If someone else can pin point some , please help me out cus off the top of my head I can't remember exact references , but as a believer in Christ I have , over the years read many OT passages which reference a messiah and suffering .
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mP
JHINE
mp , what about the suffering servant in Isaiah , there are many passages which talk about a future event of of death and ressurection . If someone else can pin point some , please help me out cus off the top of my head I can't remember exact references , but as a believer in Christ I have , over the years read many OT passages which reference a messiah and suffering .
MP:
THe easiest way to answer this is to actually read the scriptures that are in Isa itself. But before i answer remember Israel was often in trouble because unfortunately for them they were a small nation stuck at the cross roards between large great empires. THus they were often being invaded or at best vassal kings to a foreign invader, things they didnt appreicate. They were always looking for freedom, after all who doesnt want that.
Take a look at Isa 7:14 the one Christians claim is a prophecy about the virgin Mary.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/isaiah/7
men, that ? YOU ? should also tire out my God? 14 Therefore Jehovah himself will give ? YOU ? men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Im ?man′u?el.
The NWT doesnt even say virgin, it says maiden which of course means a young woman who may or may not be a virgin. If God wnted to say virgin he could have but it doesnt say that.
NOw ask yourself why would Christians need to lie when its so obvious that the text doesnot match their claim ? Surely there are dozens or hundres of other scriptures ? Why lower one standards if there are so many perfect matches ?
Feel free to find others and im sure you will see that the text in Isa is actually comtemporary for his time and not at all referring to a Messiah hundreds of years later.
The other classic one is of course the prophecy about the messiah being born in bethelhem in Micah 5:2. The problem is it doesnt say that. If you continue reading in v6 -7 it also says he will defeat the Assyrians something that never happened. Micah 5:2 actually says he will be born in Bethlehem Ephriam whic is a tribe not a place.
So again there are two major so called prophecies which are completely and i mean completely wrong.
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Rattigan350
mp:
Rather thatn state the obvious christian belief, try and show a scripture from moses (who wrote the law) that demands a perfect man will come and die and abolish this law. The simple answer is you cant because he in no way hints at a Jesus figure or equivalent.
You cannot fulfill a law you can only fulfill a prophecy. How exactly does one fulfill laws like thou shall not murder, thou shall celebrate the sabbath. If you were born a vegatable you would also not break any of moses laws.
Moses has no prophecies. There are no prophecies about a future messiah like Jesus anywhere in the OT. Jesus does not appear inthe OT. Just be honest, you can still believe in jesus but dont about telling lies that he fulfilled the law of Moses.
Moses wasn't trying to write a demand that a perfect man will come and die and abolish the law. He just wrote what Jehovah told him to, and Jehovah didn't set it out in such clear terms. If it were, then there would be no need for the law as a model.
Jesus fulfilled the law in that he did not break any of it. He went to the temple and made sacrifices when prescribed. When he died, that was no longer necessary. Thus the law stating sacrifices were neccessary, no longer applied; thus he fulfilled the law. The Law as a whole was a prophesy of Jesus and what he was to do. It was a model showing how it was necessary for him to come, die and the spiritual temple in heaven. since we can't see heavenly things, the earthly temple was a visual model of the heavenly things, or a prophesy.
Yes Moses had prophesies. Prophesies about Jesus. Deut 18:18 A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you;+ and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth,+ and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him.+ 19 And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him.+"
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mP
Rattigan:
And yet Christians claim that Moses write down a declaration that jesus fulfilled, which is down right dishonest because no such text exists.
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mP
Rattigan:
Yes Moses had prophesies. Prophesies about Jesus. Deut 18:18 A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; + and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, + and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. + 19 And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. + "
mP:
I will point out some errors with the above scripture in my attempt to show Moses was not talking about Jesus.
- Jesus is never mentioned by name or title(son of god, messiah etc). Why didnt Moses simply write Jesus son of God here ? The answer is of course Jesus is a new made up invention that only appears in the NT, there is no Jesus in the OT. If you dont blieve me ask any Rabbi.
- "He" is hardly a distinguishing attribute. All prophets, priests and kings in ancient Israel were leaders who directed their lessers. This text applies to all of them from King David, Josiah, Isaiah, Elijah etc. THis in no way uniquely identifies Jesus.
- Who exactly has Jesus ever commanded ? To command someone you must be communicating with them all the time. I think this is a bad joke, nobody honestly believes Jesus has spoken to anyone for 1900+ years.
- Lastly the scrpture is not about Jesus its a guide on how to identify false prophets. Its basically commonsense, if what they say doesnt come true, they are liars.
Why do Christians lie like this and write words into scriptures that are not clearly there. Shame on you.