2SYN,
You said:
The problem with most people believing in God (tribal or otherwise) is that they have never read the Godell Theory of Incompleteness. Quite an eye-openeer, that one!
I'm very familiar with Kurt Gödel’s theorems. For most who have studied them, Gödel’s results are evidence that
stable and self-contained systems of reasoning, e.g. mathematical reasoning,
are either insufficient to express all true theorems that exist within the system (hence
incomplete),
or lead to
undecidable propositions.
If Gödelian incompleteness does in fact extend into such metaphysical questions as the existence of God, then the consequence is that there exist things that are true that cannot be proven within the logical framework of our epistemology, or things leading to contradictions, or things that are completely undecidable - but nevertheless "true." So, I fail to see how Gödel’s results are a "real eye opener" in the sense that they would lead one to believe that God does not exist.
Fellow Posters:
I realize this is a thread more or less for the atheists in this forum. But as somebody made the comment that they wonder why “Christians” have not contributed to this discussion, please let me throw in my 2-cents:
First of all, the Christian/Atheist division presents a false dichotomy to me. If what you mean by “Christian” is somebody who simply extols the virtues of a man who was a staunch critic of the Jewish (and by corollary, any man-made) religious system and a promoter of peace and love, then yes, I am a Christian. But if you mean a person who subscribes to any one of a plethora of man-made (or man-enforced) traditions or interpretations of what is required to be “approved by Jesus/God”, then no, I am not a Christian in that sense.
I understand where most of you are coming from though, and I respect people’s conclusions even if they are different from my own. This trend, i.e. of a reversal from “believer” to “atheist” that seems so prevalent among former Jehovah’s Witnesses is noteworthy. I think the Society’s very nature fosters this trend. Basically, their theology forces one to reject virtually every idea about God/spirituality that does not conform their limited world-view, and when their house of cards finally proves too tenuous for one to adhere to, there seems to be nothing left. This is difficult and often traumatic when it happens to somebody; I know -- I went through this myself. I had to come to terms with such matters as my own mortality and my place (or apparent lack thereof) in the world. I “flirted” with atheism for some time and yet I arrived at a conclusion that probably differs from that of many posters here.
I do believe in a God. I also believe that it is possible that God does not exist. (Some might say that by definition this make me an atheist but I do not agree.) My concept of “God” may be different than what most people have in mind. I also think that many "reasonings" on the non-existence of God are nothing more than straw man arguments: "I can't believe that some bearded old man is floating around the universe zapping things with his magic wand," (the straw man) "therefore the notion of God is ridiculous."
On the other hand, I agree that the Biblical God is difficult to reconcile with our modern world-view. To me, the Bible is a record of man's early attempts to express his understanding or interpretation of the "spiritual experience" that seems to be common to man. Just as Newtonian physics was an early attempt to explain the mechanics of the universe and proved to be insufficient, so might it be said of our outdated modes of spiritual "reasoning?”
I know you have all heard the mantra: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But it rings true for me, in this case, and I am not willing to throw away the baby with the bathwater. I like to think, if anything, that our understanding of our place (and our origins) in the universe is, and will continue to be, an evolutionary process. Perhaps we, as a species, are not yet intellectually equipped to “know” or prove certain realities at this time. Nevertheless, I enjoy the discovery process, and I am ok with the possibility that I myself may never know the answers.
Five Gospels
